scans_daily | Dark Knight Returns

From:

How is Joker alive here? Did Darkseid resurrect him?

From:

It is Darkseid we're talking about here. The guy murders then resurrects his flunkies more times than I care to remember. How difficult is it to revive a long deceased psychotic?

From:

cyberghostface

I’m aware hence why I’m asking as the comic doesn’t go into detail.

From:

commodus

They're still letting Frank Miller write Batman stories?

From:

cyberghostface

Given that he wrote two of the most influential Batman stories (if not comics period) of all time, yeah.

From:

commodus

Ah, I forgot. He's pure as the driven snow, isn't he? It's not like he wrote an entire comic full of racist nonsense, is it? Or depicted Batman as a child abuser?

From:

cyberghostface

Are you referring to the comic where a Batman expy fought Al-Qaeda? And he should be, what, blacklisted for it?

From:

commodus

Him fighting terrorists isn't the issue, it's how Miller wrote the story, and the undercurrent of bigotry through it.
And yes, he should have been blacklisted from DC after that. Or maybe even before, after he wrote a story where Batman made Robin eat rats in a cave and physically assaulted Alfred.

From:

cyberghostface

What's the proper way for a New Yorker who was present during 9/11 to write about the group that murdered close to 3,000 people?

From:

deh_tommy

Probably by not implying that every single Muslim is evil, guilty or both, or that torture is a-okay, or the inane repetition and extraneous padding.

There’s a lot of stuff from Frank Miller that I like, but Holy Terror is not one of them. Heck, even Frank himself has disowned the book.

From:

cyberghostface

Probably by not implying that every single Muslim is evil, guilty or both,

There's nothing in the book that implies any such thing.

From:

silverhammerman

I've only ever paged through Holy Terror, on account of its self-styled status as propaganda, but is there a single Muslim person depicted in that book who's not at least affiliated with the terrorists; who's just a human being with interiority, living a life?

From:

cyberghostface

Given that the plot is minimalist with only the Batman and Catwoman pastiches getting any significant character moments no. That’s certainly not the same thing as implying ‘all’ Muslims are terrorists. The word ‘Muslim’ isn’t even mentioned once, just Al-Qaeda.

From:

commodus

Erm...doesn't the book start with a quote by Mohammed? It's kind of obvious that the terrorists are Muslims in his story. So I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this?

From:

cricharddavies

Because they agree with the idea that all Muslims are terrorists, obviously.

From:

cyberghostface

Rofl I'm flattered you're extending your bizarre brand of non sequitur logic like "Writing about alien invasions means you're in favor of colonialism" or "Having a rapist as your villain means you identify with the rapist " towards me.

Edited Date: 2019-12-11 07:57 pm (UTC)

From:

cricharddavies

You routinely support the powerful against the powerless. It requires no great leap of logic to understand your allegiances.

From:

cyberghostface

Given how you routinely make stuff up and lie about people to smear them I hope you don't mind if I ask for some examples of me "routinely support[ing] the powerful against the powerless".

Don't think I forgot how you would repeatedly slander Bendis for saying he identifies with the Purple Man and gets off on rape and then acted all flustered when I asked you to back it up.

From:

cricharddavies

Palmiotti and Bendis are popular, successful comic book creators. They are loved by millions. They are the powerful.

I am no one. I am nothing. No one loves me and no one ever will. I am powerless.

And you are soooo offended by this powerless person saying things about your idols.

'Nuff said.

Edited Date: 2019-12-11 08:19 pm (UTC)

From:

cyberghostface

Rofl you're not even pretending to argue that you're not routinely dishonest about people and make up false quotes to smear them.

From:

cricharddavies

They deserve to be smeared.

From:

cyberghostface

So why should anyone trust what you have to say if that’s all you do?

From:

cricharddavies

I don't care if you trust me or not.

From:

cyberghostface

No one should.

From:

cricharddavies

Don't care if anyone does.

I know the truth of myself. That's all that matters.

Edited Date: 2019-12-11 08:27 pm (UTC)

From:

icon_uk

I'm getting tired of having to tell you both to cool it.

If you're going to discuss the comics, then fine, but if you're going to get into a personal slanging match, get it the hell off of Scans_Daily.

Both of you cut it out, or there WILL be consequences.

This thread is frozen.

From:

onsokumaru

Nobody says the terrorists are not muslims in that story. They are. Like the terrorists who did the attack that inspired the comics. But those who confuse those muslims terrorists with all muslims are not Miller, but those who accuse him of islamophobia.

From:

commodus

How do you work that one out?

From:

cyberghostface

It's kind of obvious that the terrorists are Muslims in his story. So I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this?

I... never suggested otherwise...? They're Al-Qaeda so yeah that they're Muslims goes without saying. The point is "Al-Qaeda is the villain of the story" does not mean "All Muslims are evil". I don't get why that's hard to get.

Edited Date: 2019-12-11 07:59 pm (UTC)

From:

commodus

Well, the problem is that he doesn't have any Muslim characters who AREN'T terrorists. The main character makes a pretty racist statement at one point, based on their heritage. And then there's the aforementioned Mohammed quote.

It's clear what Miller was getting at, but I think you can't see it because you seem to have some interest in defending him even though it's clear he's a deeply bigoted man who uses comics as a pulpit. Maybe you could step back from your nostalgia and try to see him as he actually is?

From:

cyberghostface

And it's clear you don't know anything about Frank Miller. Like how he protested homophobia in the British government way back in 1988. Or how he supported Hillary in both elections and condemned Trump's Muslim ban.

From:

commodus

A broken clock is right twice a day.

From:

silverhammerman

Miller is, at the best of times, a relatively enlightened libertarian. However, his politics can be messy and contradictory and, yes, outright bad.

He distrusts politicians and businesses. He generally looks down on bigotry, but has used racial/sexual caricatures repeatedly in his books. He's weirdly fond of fascism despite that seeming completely at odds with his libertarianism. He's got some odd ideas about law and order, likely as a result of his having famously been mugged, like, a lot, when he first moved to New York. He's written some very cool female characters, but his framing of these characters women tends to sexualize them while rejecting traditional femininity. And his hatred of Islamic terrorists, stemming from his personal experience of 9/11, has frequently crossed over the line into Islamophobia.

Frank Miller is a talented, thoughtful, and skilled creator, who is nonetheless capable of being deeply problematic. I feel confident saying this because I literally spent the past year earning my Masters degree with a project about Frank Miller.

He's talented, but he's imperfect, like absolutely any artist.

From:

tcampbell1000

Hey, next time, lead with the master's degree! :D Seriously, that's pretty cool.

From:

tcampbell1000

Maybe more to the point, he wrote a Batman story fairly recently (albeit with some help) and a Superman story even more recently, and they both sold pretty well and managed not to alienate any major demographics. Not to mention his legacy's been all over the screen in the 21st century, from Netflix's Daredevil to 300 to Sin City to (sigh) Batman v. Superman.

I'll never trust his sensibility completely after Holy Terror, but that doesn't mean I'm surprised he's still getting gigs.

From:

gnarll

I find his attitude to the current administration starts to redeem him in my eyes.

From:

kurenai_tenka

I can't get past Joker's furry looking lips on that first panel.

From:

blueprintstyles

This is weird to say but this is some classic Kirby Darkseid, just enjoying the misery on every level and a clear metaphor for tyranny. Not that I don't enjoy the more conceptual stuff.

From:

shakalooloo

WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE NOSES

From:

silverhammerman

I am extremely into anything Rafael Grampa draws, I even like how horribly crinkly his Joker looks.

I don't know about bringing the Joker back from the dead though, seems like yet another point in favor of ignoring all of Miller's TDKR follow-ups because of their deleterious effects on the original's legacy.

The politics of this could be interesting. Miller's always been very particular in his politics, and I'm somewhat relieved to see his having come out as against Trump (which seems perfectly consistent with his stated politics going back years, but I'm always prepared to be disappointed by someone's politics and Miller's written some unpleasant things over the years) but it is downright weird to see him being so explicit here with the Trump stuff. I only read TDKR years after it first came out, so I can't really judge how this compares to it's thinly veiled Reagan analogue, but maybe this isn't as unusual as I think it is?

From:

tripodeca113

oh no Miller's back.

(reply from suspended user)

From:

servant_iskandar

And that is exactly what we should avoid here of all places - one of the rules is "no ad hominem attacks".

Which is a different thing from legitimate (even harsh, within reason), objective criticism, but during the past week or so there have been repeated attempts at muddying the waters.

silverhammerman said it best in their entries, no author is without flaws. But that doesn't absolutely justify lying about them, wishing them personal harm, starting fights with other posters and so on.

Mods, a reminder about our community's policies and ethos might be in order.

Edited Date: 2019-12-12 12:05 am (UTC)

From:

zer0man

You know, I've been wrestling with the Dark Knight stories told by Mr. Miller for a good while. I don't deny that TDKR is a seminal piece of 80's comic culture, and his subsequent works (DK Strikes Again, DKIII and ASBAR) can have mixed critique if not being panned outright, depending on who you are. But there was always something about it that felt... off, even back in TDKR. For me, it was the frequent use political and social commentary.

Now I'm not saying that comics can't delve into those topics. Pretty much any topic can be touched upon, politics and societal issues included. And it feels pretty clear to me there are distinctly political figures within the realm of superhero comics: Captain America, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, just to name a few. But Batman? It doesn't gel for me. Political figures tend to function very well under public scrutiny, and Batman (at least the modern interpretation of him) is not generally a public figure.

And yes, I know that using such commentary is a pretty powerful way to establish critical world-building components, but having them frequently come back into play (like with DK Strikes Again) can hurt the narrative by wasting space that could be used to progress the plot or provide character development.

Now, I don't have the full context of the comic (I have yet to read it along with a shedload of other titles), but this little snippet feels a lot more fleshed out and organic than what was in DK Strikes Again, and even dare I say TDKR. It's not a series of talking heads nestled inside of small drab panels providing commentary that can be either pointed or blunt. There's a sense of environment. You have legitimate characters with Joker and Darkseid. And, in some strange way... I'm seeing some nuance?

...Yeah, these scans have kinda twisted my brain in such a way I don't know if I can fully convey my thoughts. Kudos.

From:

sisterofbloomerjunior

So are all the less than honest folks agents of Darkseid?

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Bringing the crack since December 2003

Dark Knight Returns - The Golden Child #1

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(frozen) Mod Note!

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