X-Men #4 (2019) - "Global Economics"

[laughing_tree]

I want us to be telling positive stories about the characters, and… okay, here’s a tangential thing, but it illustrates the point: We’ve gotten a bunch of pitches in about X-Men stuff, right? As soon as I took over, we started getting pitches and all the pitches – not all, but a lot of the pitches were literally breaking stuff. It kind of proved my point: that what everybody is expecting to happen is for the other shoe to drop, and everything to not work, everything to go bad. The radical storytelling choice here of doing positive books where people don’t die feels like a radical choice. Which is hilarious, right? In your T+ entertainment arena? -- Jonathan Hickman

Comments

[owlbrigade1]

So this comic is all about explaining why the Marvel world is right to hate mutants? Because I'm leaning towards hating these new douchebags. There is nothing hopeful and inspiring about them.

[angelophile]

Yeaaahhh.

[tcampbell1000]

I can certainly sympathize with them as a people who've been trampled over and over by the international order, showing INCREDIBLE restraint as the order tries to do that very thing again (and I prefer to read the amount of blood in Gorgon's scenes as a poor artistic choice, rather than his killing them and saying he didn't). The struggle for human rights isn't always polite, and considering the way the last few years have gone, I'm more than ready for its champions to have a few sharp elbows.

On the other hand, this coalition is putting aside a LOT of moral differences in the name of mutant nationhood and unity, and it's vaguely hilarious to watch them pretend that isn't going to be a huge problem.

MAGNETO: "OF COURSE we mutants are your moral superiors. You humans destroy yourselves every few thousand years. Look at the Fall of Rome, where centuries of misrule led to the Dark Ages. Or look at the end of the Bronze Age, where we don't even know WHAT happened, but by PROCESS OF ELIMINATION, we can deduce it was another near-cataclysm brought on by human shortsightedness and--"

APOCALYPSE: "Oh, end of the Bronze Age? That was actually me."

MAGNETO: "um. uh"

APOCALYPSE: "And some other mutants almost destroyed everyone on Earth with that whole Phoenix thing, a few years back, but in their defense, the Avengers made them really mad first. Oh, and didn't you attempt a holocaust or two in your early days, Magnus?"

MAGNETO: "...My POINT is, humans can see what's coming for years and STILL not pull out of it, we may have a history of, uh, IMPULSES, but it's your ways that REALLY lead to disaster, Armageddon, world-breaking... apoca... you know, En Sabah Nur, your code-name is REALLY OFF-BRAND for the argument I'm trying to make here."

APOCALYPSE: "Agreed, that's why I now go by a version of **A** that no one else can pronounce."

[deh_tommy]

“But they weren't us at the time... okay, they’re us now, but back then they were bad, they weren’t indicative of-- ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.”

[alliterator]

So this comic is all about explaining why the Marvel world is right to hate mutants?

Why? Because they were so tired of being killed over and over again by humans that they finally said, "Fuck you, we're going to be in charge now and if you don't like it, tough shit."

Because that sounds like a pretty reasonable thing for them to say.

[icon_uk]

There have been a few too many attempted genocides against mutants by supposedly democratic societies (The US Government privatised Sentinel construction for pities sake) for me to feel that they're not completely justified to at least TRY something new and more likely to be effective.

Given some of their current line-up, it's the sort of set up which is likely to blow up in their face, probably literally, but at least it's a different approach to "Let us wait here for the latest assault on mutants"

[deh_tommy]

...yeah, still not convinced.

Also, I’m pretty sure those people are dead from blood loss.

[cainofdreaming]

Gorgon (just before being dumped under Krakoa) - "So everyone doesn't heal from wounds in moments? Huh. Learn something new every day."

[nyadnar17]

" want us to be telling positive stories about the characters, and… okay, here’s a tangential thing, but it illustrates the point: We’ve gotten a bunch of pitches in about X-Men stuff, right? As soon as I took over, we started getting pitches and all the pitches – not all, but a lot of the pitches were literally breaking stuff. It kind of proved my point: that what everybody is expecting to happen is for the other shoe to drop, and everything to not work, everything to go bad. The radical storytelling choice here of doing positive books where people don’t die feels like a radical choice. Which is hilarious, right? In your T+ entertainment arena? -- Jonathan Hickman"

Laughing through the tears over here

[tcampbell1000]

Well, let's not break anything before we're finished BUILDING, at least.

[lencannon]

Mutants can have little a neoliberalism, as a misguided attempt to defeat global capital by defeating it on its own terms.

[mesmiranda]

Yeah--from Mag's speech, it doesn't seem like they're actually dismantling any harmful institutions, they're just making sure they're the ones on top by virtue of magic Krakoa drugs. And getting rid of any "undesirables".

And Charles isn't a whole lot better, with "something that is rightfully ours"--what something, Krakoa? Global hegemony? If anything, him removing the helmet and "I love you, I'll always believe in you!" makes him creepier.

The direction this series is going in is fascinating, but I am genuinely lost as to who to root for or where this is all going to end up, and it's hard to forge emotional connections with the characters, in that sense.

[alliterator]

Yeah--from Mag's speech, it doesn't seem like they're actually dismantling any harmful institutions, they're just making sure they're the ones on top by virtue of magic Krakoa drugs. And getting rid of any "undesirables".

They are dismantling harmful institutions by first taking control of them. You can't dismantle what you can't control.

[mesmiranda]

But they're not dismantling them after they take control of them. Erik explicitly says "our institutions"; he specifically points out how these folks got rich--by fucking over the working and middle class--and says, "we're going to do what you do, but better". It's the same status quo, it's just a pro-mutant status quo.

[lencannon]

So, I've been thinking about it a lot. I love what's going on in general, but I think it can be a little... incoherent at points? I'd say it's because of the different writers across so many books, but it flows throughout. And that's not necessarily bad, just messy. Sometimes people or political movements aren't internally consistent.

But the X-Men right now are basically encompassing roughly 5 or more different radical solutions to oppression at once and it makes things confusing. The mix and match nature of liberation is confusing things but kind of neat to see different perspectives playing out across the same movement instead of as opposite ideologies clashing.

The politics of the mutants themselves is a bit all over the place as well. Krakoa is basically a communist nation (to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability) but they're also working hard to dominate the human world through capitalism.

They also are taking a page from imperialism in Excalibur where Apocolypse (i'm sorry i can't type your new name) is encroaching on other "nations" and installing loyal puppet leaders.

X-Force is modeled after the CIA which OOF, not a group you should probably build your future around. But that's realpolitik in action.

It's all very interesting and messy and all of these threads are going to be pulled on at some point. I'm excited.

[gnarll]

Thats... not unreasonable. You get people like Magneto, Apocalypse, Shaw etc onboard with your goal, they are going to pursue it in different ways.

[zachbeacon]

This whole plan reeks of Shaw.

[icon_uk]

Who came from nothing to be a captain of industry and an incredibly wealthy and politically powerful man.

In a case like this, where your people's very existence is at stake, there are worse people to listen to.

[capnduckman]

So, the only Gorgon I'm conversant with is the Inhuman... who is this guy?

[scorntx]

Gorgon, "human" name Tomi Shishido.
Created by Mark Millar and John Romita Jr. in Wolverine Vol 3 issue 21.
Born with unnatural intelligence that let him mathematically prove the existence of The One Above All by thirteen (that ol' Mark Millar grasp of genius), and the mutant ability to turn people to stone, which curiously he tends not to use in favour of slicing people to bits with swords.
He joined The Hand at the age of eighteen, where he helped them capture and brainwash Logan, who when he got unbrainwashed killed Gorgon by turning him to stone.
Fast forward a few years, Baron Strucker resurrected him to help lead HYDRA, where he fought against Nick Fury's Secret Warriors, where he killed Phobos, a kid.
Since then he's mostly just bummed around leading HYDRA or Hand goons in their Plots of the Week, except for that week he cosplayed as Wolverine for Norman Osborn.

And for some reason Charles and Magneto don't think there's anything wrong with having this guy around.

[matrix_dragon]

There's a lot of people Charles and Magneto should probably be concerned about having around. This occasionally includes Charles and Magneto.

[scorntx]

Well, if they leave out everyone and anyone they should be concerned about, the only Mutants on Krakoa would be Honey Badger, Wolfsbane and Storm.

It's just... Gorgon was a member of HYDRA. Given Magneto's history, one would think he'd maybe have some stronger objections to just letting the guy breathe air.

[deh_tommy]

Who’s ready for Krakoa-infused Onslaught?

[zachbeacon]

I just can't take The Artist Formally Known As Apocalypse seriously with that Bronze Age thing.

At best he reminds me of the Brains from Futurama. "What killed the dinosaurs?" "MEEE!"

At worst he's pulling a Vandal Savage and he's taking credit for shit he didn't do.

This is the problem with immortal supervillains with plans of world domination; if they couldn't take over the world BEFORE there were superheroes everywhere then how are they gonna manage it now?

(Though TAFKAA did rule Egypt for a while so that puts him ahead of most. Plus, last time he had this many mutants on his side was the AoA world)

[bruinsfan]

This is the problem with immortal supervillains with plans of world domination; if they couldn't take over the world BEFORE there were superheroes everywhere then how are they gonna manage it now?

To be fair, there were sorcerers and gods around many thousands of years in the past, and most of the latter and not a few of the former sit very high on the scale of superhuman power.

[zachbeacon]

I mean, yeah, he'd have to deal with whichever Sorcerer Supremes proceeded the Ancient One but I still think there'd be fewer magic users running around.

Also, while I'm aware of the Siren retcon, IIRC it was kind of a big deal when "Venus" shows up in the late 1940s because the Gods have been away for so long they became myths. Likewise with Thor, Herc, ect in the modern day.

But I wouldn't be apposed to a story where The Knights of the Round Table, Merlin, and some Eternals or whatever fight Apocalypse.

[agent8]

can I just reiterate a point that I think using the Jewish character to talk about how they're going to infiltrate/take over the world financial structure and use money to buy world domination is, IMHO, playing uncomfortably close to a seriously insidious Jewish stereotype.

[icon_uk]

Agreed, I can see why they wanted to use the most prominent mutant terrorist to elaborate on his most recent change of course, but it does have a very uncomfortable feel to it that they used the Jewish character rather than say, the WASP-y Xavier, or even Apocalypse.

[akodo_aoshi]

In all honesty, I had to read your comment before I even remembered that Magneto was a jew.

It's something I have always known about Erik (Holocoust victim [or is it survivor?]) but when I try to describe Magneto it just does not pop into my head.

I think it's because Magneto being a jew is more a part of his history rather then something I see on panel which is a complaint I have about most non-athiest characters to be honest. Their relligion seems to be a point on a fact sheet rather than a part of their character. I'd love a panel of Magneto saying a quick prayer in hebrew before some occasion/event or other characters doing simillar for their religions.

Note: As always there are exceptions, Dust for example but I'd love more.

[mesmiranda]

That... had not occurred to me before. Yiiiiikes.

[icon_uk]

I have absolutely NO idea why Magik is considered a Captain, there is nothing about her past or personality which would make her a good leader.

It's especially egregious considering that Mirage is repowered and on Krakoa. DANI FRICKING MOONSTAR IS RIGHT THERE! (Cannonball should also be up for the role, but with him in Shi'Ar space I can see why they might not pick him right now.).

If Dani Moonstar gives an order there isn't a New Mutant alive who wouldn't obey her instantly

If Illyana Rasputin gives an order there isn't a New Mutant alive who wouldn't look over to see whether Dani was going to obey first.

[matrix_dragon]

Illyana is one of those people that needs a Moral Oversight Specialist at all times. She usually means well, but, well, we've seen how that's gone before.

[gnarll]

Amen. In my opinion, they dodged a huge bullet by sheer luck when Cyclops et al went off and told her "We are villains now". That could have ended up with a bloody Magic standing in the kitchen going "but you said we were villains now! You said!" while the others watch the news in horror.

Maybe that happened and she went back in time to tell herself that morning "They didn't really mean it"

Anyway, I expect shes a captain because she is the one magical field operative with a fairly okish record of being on the side of the Xavier/Cyclops/Magneto political block and toeing the line, while being powerful enough to kick Dormammu in the face until he dies. I can't really think of anyone else sufficiently powerful and loyal to keep reins on the arcane powers on Krakoa.

[bruinsfan]

Definitely true, but then I don't really see any of the four except Cyclops having good leadership skills. Maybe Hickman thinks the more badass/scary you are, the more people will be inclined to follow you?

Ororo, Dani Moonstar, Roberto da Costa, Kate Pryde, and probably Kurt Wagner would all be people I'd choose for field leadership positions before the other three listed. For that matter I'm having trouble thinking of *anyone* I wouldn't pick before Illyana. Maybe Kid Omega or Mystique?

[gnarll]

All of your choices from Ororo to Kurt would have been better in terms of being respected and followed by Xaviers students. But... in this setup, Xaviers students will fall in line. They are not the ones to worry about.

You're going to need at least one person who can tell Selene, Apokalypse etc what to do in an emergency involving arcane issues. And who can actually perceive what they get up to. The Demon Sorceress Supreme who kicked Dormammu in the face until he begged for his life can get the requisite minimum of respect there. The others can't.

The list of mutants with magical credentials whom the Xavier faction can rely on is pretty short. I think its just Forge and Illyana. Forge has other duties and is far less powerful than Illyana. Aslo she is more politically acceptable.

[wizardru]

Come on, Erik, you're an educated man, repeat after me: THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS THE DARK AGES. It's as lazy as the 'humans only use 10% of their brain' myth and just as pernicious. You know when the phrase 'dark ages' came into the popular vernacular? THE TWELFTH CENTURY. The mining thing is an oversimplification, as well: comparing a slave-driven work force of a continent spanning empire to the capacity of smaller feudal nations to gather materials in a changing technological state is kind of self-serving, here. Which I know Magneto might intend, but I'm more inclined to assume it's Hickman talking through him. I mean, yes, medieval countries used Roman mines to get lead...because they were already there. The biggest Roman innovation that they didn't understand (and to be clear, today we're still not clear on all of the techniques they used) was clearing of water to make mining possible. But like the construction of the pyramids, it's less about technology and more about scale and labor questions.

I don't know why this grinds my gears, but there we are.

As for the mutants basically telling these guys to pound sand? Yeah, I'm with them. For decades they've been trying the other methods and it hasn't worked. Now they're a basically saying 'you know what, we're not playing by your rules any longer. We're our own thing and we're tired of trying to do it your way. We'll ask you to meet us half-way, here, but how things play out from here is YOUR choice.'

Yes, the mutants have had their hand is some dicey stuff. Who hasn't in the MU? Have they saved all of reality more than once? YES. Have they saved the planet more than once? YES. Have they saved tons of non-mutants, often with no thanks or credit? YES. Have they been the target of MULTIPLE GENOCIDES? YES. Are they cocky here? Sure they are. But they've kind of reached their limit, you know? I'm having a hard time feeling like they're out of line. There's a lot here to unpack about systemic racism and privilege, IMHO.

[gnarll]

Well, on the Dark Ages thing, there are a variety on opinions on that. Trade collapsed, population densities plummeted, piracy and raiding soared. I remember reading, admittedly a long time ago that the coasts of Britain were nearly devoid of human life for a while after the legions left.

Its starting to look increasingly like humanity in Scandinavia suffered near extinction during and immediately following the "ragnarok".

The period following the Bronze Age Collapse can certainly be called a dark age, and the first dark age doesn't look that pleasant either.

[wizardru]

Setting aside the fact that the very term 'Dark Ages' is focused ENTIRELY on Europe with the connotation that nowhere else mattered (and Asia would have a lot of argument with you about it), it's still something of a false narrative, which is why the term is little used today. It was based on an incorrect assessment of history based of a lack of archaeological records and data and the presumption of a loss more so than an actual decline. The Black Death had a lot more to do with these issues than a decline in the arts or technology. The Bronze Age collapse was a Dark Age, surely, but several empires came through it...and they didn't lose art or technology on the way through, they merely saw their empires shrink over the course of 100 years.

My problem with the use of the term is it implies that there's this sudden loss of knowledge and culture, which was how it was presented for many years....the narrative that society (and by that again, we're only talking Europe and parts of North Africa) regressed into savagery and ignorance until the Renaissance came and made people smart. It's a reductive and honestly racist worldview, which is why it's been moved out of common usage.

[cricharddavies]

Gosh, are you suggesting that this comic book is encouraging a racist world view? I'm shocked, shocked that such a thing could be thought possible.