Joker accepts his Oscar

[cyberghostface]

This is from Enrico Marini who wrote and illustrated Batman: The Dark Prince Charming.

Comments

[janegray]

I wonder if Alina will ever make her way to DC canon. After all, The Son Of The Demon was originally an out-of-continuity story too, but Damian is canon now.

[magicrubbish]

Who is Alina ??

[janegray]

The little girl in Batman: The Dark Prince Charming, the result of a one-night-stand. She is either Bruce's daughter, or Joker's.

[magicrubbish]

Ahh interesting. Is she Harley Quinn's daughter ??

[janegray]

No, no. Nine years before the series, around the time Batman was just getting started and Jack just got turned into the Joker (so he wasn't recognizable as a criminal yet), the two of them had a one-night-stand with a barmaid. Not at the same time, obviously, but close enough that it's left ambiguous whether the father is Bruce or the Joker. At the beginning of the story, she contacts Bruce, asking for child support.

I have some issues with the story. For starters, Bruce's characterization doesn't ring true. He says very disparaging things about prostitutes, which is massively OOC from his usual attitude that they are ladies and should be treated with kindness and respect. He also sends the mother away when she asks him for money because he just assumes that he couldn't possibly be the father; I'd expect a paranoid guy like Bruce to run a DNA test just in case, and anyway I'd expect him to offer assistance to a woman in need with a young child instead of just sending her away.

Also, Harley needs to be explained what Lima Syndrome is. Hello??? She was a psychologist!

That said, the art is absolutely gorgeous, and Alina is a likeable character.

[deh_tommy]

I kind of figured Alina was a pastiche of Duela Dent. At least that’s what I tell myself, since that’s unintentionally the only good Joker’s Daughter story to come out in the past several years and I’ll take what I can get.

[magicrubbish]

Honestly ?? Nowadays I don't know any more what is OOC and what is IC for Bruce. Tom King's Bruce also behaved completely different from the Bruce I've come to know , and it was not even an one-off but in the main continuity. Not just Bruce, several characters were OOC during his run , in fact.
In conclusion , I think writers nowadays don't give a damn about continuity.
I'm no one to judge anyone on their chosen life style unless and until they seriously hurt or harm some one , but honestly , I don't know what to say about Bruce and his respect for woman.. because his bedroom certainly has a revolving door and women just roll off his sheet in a line.
But I'd slightly disagree on the DNA test part. Bruce never even did DNA test for Damian's paternity either . He sort of resigned himself to it and in a short time completely accepted and owned it with a possessiveness for his fatherhood. As in , he keeps parroting " I'm your father. You're my son. " in every alternate sentence.
Infact the absence of DNA test was the basis of the recent " Is Deathstroke Damian's father ?? story arc. There , finally finally Bruce got himself around to having the DNA test done and yet when the result came back , he threw them in the fire saying some thing like, " I don't care what is in those papers. I know he is my son. " And they sort of showed us the burning report which says that the result matches , Bruce is the father of Damian.
So yep .
But yes Bruce sort of gives away money randomly to street urchins , it's odd that he sent her away without money help but may be he thought that'd encourage an extolling behavior.
If Bruce thinks Alina is not his , then I'd trust his hunch and say she belongs to joker . ( Not that I mind , Bruce do have his own biological kid already , would be interesting Joker having one and the whole how'd he be as a father angle that sounds spicy. ) . Because he kind of instinctively knew that Damian is his son and he was right. He knows what he knows.

[janegray]

Honestly, I really don't think having a lot of casual sex with consenting women is inherently misogynistic. As long as nobody is getting tricked or illuded, I see zero problems with it. Sex is fun, for men and for women, so I don't think there is anything inherently disrespectful about sleeping around.

But in the story, Bruce calls prostitutes "whores," compares them to villains, and includes them as part of Gotham's "dirt." That's massively misogynist. And given that we have had stories where Bruce explicitly teaches Robin never to disrespect prostitutes, and stories where prostitutes save his life because he was the only one who was kind to them, I just can't buy it.

[magicrubbish]

In real life it is not and I'd never judge a man for having that life style as long as he treats women with respect , which Bruce usually does.
But in the world of comics books , it is sure as hell misogynistic. Like you said , it is fun for both men and women , but turns out that men are the only ones having all the fun.
If you google Batman lover , you'll get this long list ( by long I mean really loooonnnnggg ) and those are just his love interests , not even taking into account his one night stands such as these.
Whereas say one of his girls , Selina or Talia , give me the name of few of their lovers. * Cricket in the background *
It's about the pattern that is misogynistic as hell . Wolverine or Bruce get to do it and still keep the tag of best super hero and beloved by the general fandom . But they won't let the girls have the same. And if God forbid they do , they'll be slut shamed to hell.
When Rogue broke up with Remy and slept with Magneto and went out with a few guys , kissing them etc. , she was called names I dare not type here , loudest by Remy fans , yeah the same Remy who has slept his way through the world . Literally.
How come the same choices makes a male super hero or a villain for that matter sexy , macho and irresistible are considered wrong for women hero and villains still ??
When Talia slept with Jason , fans were outraged and it was not just about Jason's age , he wasn't a teenager after all and that's all that matters. Most had problems with how incestuous this is ! Like , WTF ! So Bruce is allowed to move on and do anything and Talia must pine for him till eternity ?? And incestuous how ?? She's not Bruce's anything since a long time when Jason happened . So , that.
Slade Wilson has this life style where he's basically into anyone with a skirt but his badass wife Addeline must be fixated and obsessed with this lying cheating ex husband of hers. It sets my teeth on edge !
But in the story, Bruce calls prostitutes "whores," compares them to villains, and includes them as part of Gotham's "dirt." That's massively misogynist. And given that we have had stories where Bruce explicitly teaches Robin never to disrespect prostitutes, and stories where prostitutes save his life because he was the only one who was kind to them, I just can't buy it. See , I haven't read the book . so I didn't know all this. Yelp ! That's no Bruce. Yikes !

[deepspaceartist]

To be fair, with Damian it was Talia Al Ghul that was making the claim. Talia is very unlikely to be falsely claiming Bruce to be the father for any reason a normal Gotham woman would be, and she knows and respects Bruce's detective skills enough that she wouldn't be making that claim unless it was true or she had done an extraordinarily thorough job of faking it. In the case of Alina, where an ordinary civilian woman is making the claim, a properly written Bruce would likely get a DNA test. He would almost certainly get Alina and her mother set up with a decent cash flow either way regardless of the results, but he'd want to know for sure for his own peace of mind.

[magicrubbish]

I understand your point and I agree that Talia was most unlikely to lie about such things ( all those things you mentioned plus the fact that Talia is 10 times richer than the Waynes , as is mentioned in many comics ) but my point was different . Bruce didn't analyse and reach that conclusion that " Hey , Talia is probably not lying so this must be my son. " He kind of knew immediately that this child is his . Not for a second he doubted it . Not even after seeing the DNA report that Talia herself planted , saying Deathstroke is Damian's real father. He was mad but never doubtful.
I'm talking about instinct not logic. His instinct says Alina is not his child and he's correct.

Her mother was probably a gold digger and though it has been widely and firmly established that Bruce is respectful of fancy ladies ( as one should. This is just a profession just like any other and deserves as much respect as any other job. ) , he's unlikely to be respectful towards Gold diggers. So I support him turning them away empty handed. Gold diggers should always be discouraged , be it man and woman. They're the worst kind.

[janegray]

Respectfully disagree.

Alina's mother sincerely believed that Bruce was the father (and to be fair, Alina does look a lot more like Bruce than like Joker, though of course Joker's "make up" heavily masks his original features). She also raised Alina alone for 9 years, without ever even attempting to contact Bruce. It's heavily implied that she finally decided to ask for child support because her drug use got too much for her to deal with (she keeps hugging her arms, full of holes, and she generally seems downtrodden and unlike the upbeat barmaid in the flashbacks), so she found herself unable to care for the child alone anymore.

If she had been a gold digger, she would have gone to Bruce to begin with, shortly after the pregnancy. Not live in poverty for a full decade until she physically couldn't handle it anymore.

Bruce is really good at figuring out when people lie. So he surely realised that this destitute, drug-addicted young woman who was struggling to hold a job and care for her child, was not trying to trick him but genuinely believed that he was the father (and, as such, that he was responsible for child support. It takes two to tango). I can't imagine that he would have felt scorn for her instead of compassion.

[magicrubbish]

Again, I understand your points , but I've my different opinion about it. Facial similarity with Bruce is nothing to go by especially in a female child , both Richard and Jason with black hair looks a lot like Brcue. Dick can any day easily pass off as a younger version of Bruce himself , so striking is the facial similarity , the way he's drawn in the comics.
As for Joker , I'm not saying she's even Joker's child . I've no idea how he actually looks, different comics draw him differently as per the whim of the writer.
May be she's a child of some random person.
Bruce is the kind of person who,
1. Wouldn't be caught dead having unprotected intercourse , that too with a random fly. It's literally far more ooc than Bruce bad mouthing fancy ladies. He's the champion of protected sex . He drills his boys about it. Talia freaking al Ghul , at that time his lover , had to drug him silly so that they can have a night of unprotected action.
Come on , we're talking Bruce here , who takes fork and knife to a sandwich restaurant , from home and uses it !
If he indeed had unprotected night out , then that is not Bruce Wayne and if he's not Bruce Wayne , does it really matter how he behaved with Alina and her mother ??
2. No way DC will ever allow Bruce to have any child from a random hooker. She'll be either a super heroine or super villain or both !
This is Batman we're talking about . Look at Damian's legacy . He's the grandson of Ra's Al Ghul no less and the heir apparent of Al Ghuls.
Bruce is likely going to have a daughter sooner or later , with Selina , as is heavily hinted during Tom King's run. Which leaves little scope for any other children.
3. A drug addict's words can never be trusted. I know a man who lets out his teenage daughter for 5 years for continued supply of drugs , we recently rescued the daughter. Even the law thinks so. If you can prove at court that a person is habitual drug user , his / her statement in the capacity of a witness can be rendered null and void.
Like I said , she probably wanted money bad , plus she wanted to belief ( i'm giving her benefit of doubt here ) that the child belongs to Bruce but Bruce knew better. All these years she didn't try that only because she knew herself that she was not Bruce's. Maybe the same reason she didn't go to court.

ETA : They're not even allowing Deathstroke , since his mercurial rise in popularity to have a daughter from a Chinese prostitute . They retconned Rose's mother as this super I.Q golden hearted double agent , basically upping her badass quotient , who was just "posing as a hooker" for greater good etc. because even Slade Wilson can not have a child from a random fly.
DC is all about blood and legacy, when it comes to their super hero children. Every one is who and who's child.

[fra080389]

Bruce Wayne isn't a real person, so if the child is his or not depends by the author. Made no sense for Gwen to have two twins with Norman Osborn, forced or not, but they did anyway.

[magicrubbish]

By the same logic , this whole discussion is completely pointless. Because what should be or should not be ooc for a character depends on the author too. So this Bruce Wayne considers fancy women pos , end of the discussion.
There is huge difference in the importance of Gwen for Marvel and Bruce for DC.

[lucean]

While the Bat-Clan is really too bloated at the moment for me personally, I do think she might be an interesting addition.

One of a fundamental challenges with Damien is that, from the very start, he has been the son of the Bat, not the son of Bruce Wayne. Thus he isn't really a mechanism to examine the legacy and burden of the Wayne family. Thus having a child of Bruce with whom you could do that with could be really interesting.

[janegray]

I personally love the 4 batbrothers together, I'm extremely fond of the TMNT vibes. But I can also see the argument that the clan is getting too big.

In which case, my solution is this: just send some of then to a different city/state/country.

It seems so obvious to me. Sending Dick to Bludhaven was an easy and harmless way to leave more room for Tim. It makes sense that the boys, as adults, might want to find their own place. And if they are in missions undercover, you can also explain why they can't just rush back whenever there is trouble in Gotham (although I don't even think that needs an explanation, after all we don't ask why Superman doesn't help).

Instead a bunch of writers go "there are too many people in the batfamily, clearly thst means we have to kil them!"

[magicrubbish]

clearly thst means we have to kil them!"
And bring them back from the dead at the soonest possible opportunity !

[lego_joker]

after all we don't ask why Superman doesn't help

*raises hand* I do...

[lucean]

I have to admit that I fundamentally disagree as it would still the Batclan is utterly bloated, even if they are in other cities. This is again a personal opinion.

Here's the challenge with the Batclan. As it is so huge, every writer wants to tell why they're favorite matters, which results in none of them really mattering as the next writer will just ignore the current one to push their favorite. That would still happen and it currently makes it insanely difficult to introduce new blood or diversity to the Batclan as there is such a huge barrier to get through first.

[janegray]

YMMV. Taking turns in being "the best one" doesn't make me think less of the currently neglected ones. The stories were they had their turn being awesome still exist, they are still established history. And they will have their turn again. This cyclical nature, to me, ensures that all the characters are awesome, because they all eventually get their turn to shine.

And, frankly, I think the single biggest barrier to introducing new blood and diversity is precisely the gratuitously with which creators handle discarding the characters. If even established characters aren't safe from the chopping block, it makes new characters into practically red shirts. Why would I get emotionally and financially invested in a red shirt? If I thought that DC were serious about ditching Dick, Tim and/or Jason, I'd just assume Duke is doomed too, so I wouldn't even bother looking at him.

[lucean]

I have to admit, I really dont' comprehend that final point, but it is a YMMV situation. If DC makes it clear it is never going to let go of anyone, why should I ever care about a new character as they will never be that important as the core cast.

This also brings us to a sad reality. There's a reason why almost every creative project has a limited cast as it takes contiuous resources to feature and make them feel meaningful. If they want to build up Cass and/or Duke, then it requires several continuous big stories and them being featured on cross-overs in core roles. If it is take.-your-turn approach, then none of them matter. I'd even argue that this isn't an YMMV situation, but rather a reality when looking large cast products at a large. For someone new to be introduced in a central role, someone old first needs to go.

[janegray]

Damian is literally a new character who has been built to be as important as the 80-year-old cast in just little over a decade.

Bringing in new villains would be even easier: just cure the old ones, creating an empty spot to be filled. This would have the added benefit of giving Arkham some legitimacy, so Batman himself doesn't look delusional when he keeps hoping it can help his rogues.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why having to wait for your turn means that you don't matter.

[deepspaceartist]

The problem is that the older and more established a character is the harder it is to ever get rid of them. Because even if you did kill off (for example) Tim to make room for someone new, Tim's been around long enough that he has a pretty sizable portion of the fanbase that would be pissed if he got axed. And pissed readers are readers who drop your book. And if you're especially unsubtle about how you just killed a fan favourite for your new guy, well now you've preemptively soured a bunch of people on your new character and severely undermined their chances of success.

And eventually, one of those fans that was pissed you killed Tim will almost certainly become a creator themselves and bring him back, and very possibly kill off whoever you put in Tim's place out of revenge, spite, or because they just plain never liked them. That's frankly how we got in this mess of characters never staying dead in the first place.

Killing off established characters just to make room for new ones is a terrible idea, and rarely to never works anyways. Send them off on offpanel adventures, retire them, whatever, just don't kill them because no one will be fooled into believing that a decades old beloved fan favourite is permanently removed from the board so you can roll the dice on the statistically slim chances of some new character catching on big.