Batman #90

[cyberghostface]

The Designer comes out of the room and tells his men to kill them all.

Comments

[lordultimus]

Well, I can appreciate them trying to establish the Joker changing and how the other villains reacted to it, even if I think modern writers often take things too far.

[nyadnar17]

You know the constant threat of "Catwoman and Batman's marriage will be OVER!" makes me predisposed to hate this. As does my dislike of modern Joker.

But I gotta say this is interesting. The idea that the Joker I grew up with was originally how Joker was and overtime he changed into....into this is really cool to explore.

[zachbeacon]

Actually, when WAS the last great Joker story in comics?

There were bits I liked in Morrison and King's runs but Dini's "Slay Ride" was the last time I remember him feeling right.

[lego_joker]

Jeff Parker's Batman '66 digital comic did a couple great turns with him, though ultimately even that slid into grimderp territory once the Wonder Woman '77 crossover hit.

[deh_tommy]

I rather liked Endgame, and I thought Harleen was fantastic.

[tcampbell1000]

+1

[kurenai_tenka]

'Great Joker story' is an oversell, but I liked Tomasi's recent characterisation of him in 'Tec 1008.

[obsidianwolf]

I want to like this but there's that over hanging status quo will always return that keeps it from being as interesting as it could be.

The idea that the Joker started out as something less evil has been explored before and since modern comics being what they are will always keep the joker around being terrible any sort of him slower morphing into true evil will always fall flat because no one stops him permanently which makes no damn sense.

[janegray]

Well, I guess this is necessary now. Harley Quinn is an incredibly popular character, and her past association with the Joker is too integral a part of her character to ignore. If modern Joker tortures babies to death, and you want to sell Harley as an anti-heroine, you pretty much have to say "he wasn't that bad at first."

Plus, as a fan of continuity, I just appreciate the acknowledgment of those old stories.

[lego_joker]

There's actually been a handful of pitches over on Tumblr about how to write a Harley that was never "into" Joker to begin with, even if her motif derives from his. Most of them saying she just saw him on TV and idolized him in the abstract, but changed her mind (and ran into Ivy's arms) the first time she met him in-person.

[janegray]

Personally, I wouldn't like that at all.

Harley is important because she is a survivor of domestic abuse who got away and grew into a force to be reckoned with. Changing it so that she was never his partner completely destroys that inspirational aspect of her character.

There are 39462387461 stories of disillusioned fanboys/girls. They are relatable (I think all of us have had at least one beloved actor/writer/artist who turned out to be a crazy asshole), but they are not powerful.

Plus, one extremely relatable aspect of Ivy's character is the anger, frustration and fear of watching somebody you love stick with somebody who treats them like garbage, and the relief when they FINALLY DTMFA. If you change it so that Harley runs into Ivy's arms five minutes after meeting the Joker, it kills the emotional weight of the story.

[lego_joker]

Fair enough, but hasn't DC already taken that angle with Catwoman and Ivy (is the Woodrue thing still in continuity)? Hell, even Talia to an extent? It may well be easier to tally up the DC villainesses who aren't domestic abuse survivors of one stripe or another.

[janegray]

Tbh I've never even heard of Selina, Ivy and Talia having an abusive partner.

[shadur]

Ra's might count.

I'm sure he considers himself a loving, doting but strict father, but...

[kurenai_tenka]

There's that awful Bane of the Demon story too, if that's still remotely in continuity.

[beyondthefringe]

So the Designer is supposedly an old school villain who matched up against the greatest detective of his era, only to be thwarted repeatedly, until he realized he needed to level up in order to claim victory. The detective died, broken and humiliated, a shadow of what the world remembered him to be.

We see images of the two sword-fighting on a train and on an airship.
So what Golden Age detective type characters used swords?
I wonder if the Designer is supposed to be an obscure character reinvented for this story, or someone new... with some writers, I'd be sure that they dredged the old comics for someone fitting.
(Part of me thought "Moriarty? at first. Heh.)

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Honestly, everything but maybe "Golden Age" made me think of Ra's Al Ghul.

[akodo_rokku]

I mean it's definitely drawing on Moriarty.

[locuatico]

OK, so what? the issue with Joker is long past "from villain with clown motiff suddenly is a mass murdered who just happens to weak clown make-up". As much as you want to reconcile those two ideas, the issue is that you keep taking The Joker lower and lower this path of making him a monster.
Unless you actually change The Joker to what he was before this is just another boring story about a villain from Dexter who is in a world where everyone has morality out of a saturday morning cartoon.

[silverhammerman]

I actually quite like the idea here with the Joker and the Designer, but it feels pointless. This arc with the Designer is only really about establishing how evil the Joker is, and it's completely unnecessary. The Joker has been like this for a good 40 years, I don't think an explanation or meditation is really necessary at this point. Moreover, having the Designer recognize what the Joker really is an immediately try to kill him only draws attention to the patent absurdity of the Joker still being alive.

[tcampbell1000]

I very much liked the Penguin's flash of decency in giving the Designer a burial.