The Immortal Hulk #37 - "The Keeper of the Door"

[laughing_tree]

As I've said in previous interviews, if Hulk really is the strongest one there is, then "will this villain prove stronger" is a non-question. Enemies have to challenge him on different ground or either the story is dull or it doesn't feel real. Similarly, the Leader has to be the smartest one there is, or he doesn't work. So everything becomes part of the plan, every defeat is just a cog in a larger machine. Given time and resources, the Leader will out-think any foe. -- Al Ewing

Comments

[zachbeacon]

Yeah, not really buying that the Leader is the smartest one there is. He also stuck me as being like the Wizard from the Frightful Four; he THINKS he's a match for the really smart hero but he often loses to the kid sidekick.

And, unlike Johnny Storm, Rick Jones is a high school dropout with no powers (most of the time).

Though now I have the image of the Wizard puppeting the Human Torch's corpse and I do not care for it.

[shakalooloo]

The Leader was always billed as being the smartest, and it just never played out. Once he gets defeated once in a dumb way, things spiral from there. The Intelligencia was, I think, the last time he approached being a genuine threat.

[gnarll]

Intelligence is a beast of many parts. The Leader, to me never demonstrated general smarts. He seems to lack creativity, thinking on his feet, and true inspiration.

In exchange he has highly enhanced technical intelligence, perfect memory, number-crunching, parallel processing etc. And the mental control. Brute-force intellect if you will.

He doesn't seem to function well in the chaotic environment of multiple unpredictables that is the Marvel Universe. It is probably why he keeps trying to impose some more predictable order.

[tcampbell1000]

There is, perhaps, no major villain in superhero fiction who fails to live up to his own billing as consistently as the Leader.

Evil genius types are common enough, those who rely on their mind and have little muscle they don't manufacture. The Fantastic Four have at least four of 'em: the aforementioned Wizard, the Mad Thinker, Dr. Doom, and the Maker. Luthor and Sivana are like two different drafts of the same character, and they map closer to the Leader in that they're supposed to be smarter than their archnemesis but keep tripping over their own ego. But Superman is no dummy, and even Captain Marvel's got the wisdom of Solomon and advice of Shazam... er, sorry, old habits. Even Shazam's got Solomon and the Wizard (but not the aforementioned Wizard) backing up his preteen flashes of insight.

The Hulk, most typically, is his "AAARGH, SMASH" self, AKA the dumbest hero ever to reach an issue #100, and that includes the Road Runner. Wile E. Coyote-like, the Leader has not only failed to outthink this idiot, he's believed that he has outthought him only to get the tables turned on him over and over. It's like watching Professor Moriarty consistently lose to a rock.

Ewing is not the first to suggest that the Leader's long string of defeats only make sense if he's somewhat detached, an experimenter just toying with his superscience and world-threatening plots to see what'll happen, even if he can still get emotional about such plans in the heat of the moment. And Ewing does succeed in making the Leader menacing here, and of course the Hulk's varied personalities are now making things a bit more of an even contest.

Still, the very next issue has the Leader run into some reversals partly due to him spreading his attention too thin, and when Joe Fixit says "For a genius, you're an idiot, Sterns," it doesn't feel like he's wrong. Maybe the Leader's best viewed as a dark mirror of the Hulk, and not just in the "smart instead of strong" sense. Maybe they're both ridiculously powerful but mentally broken creatures whose greatest enemies, no matter what they think, are not each other but themselves.

[didiji]

A very well-placed point of view that I end up agreeing with. Thanks for sharing! :)

[zachbeacon]

It really doesn't help that his primary foe is the Hulk. It tends to result in a lot of Gordian Knot situations. The Leader can construct all the brilliant traps he wants but it doesn't do him any good when the other guy doesn't care about the rules and can just brute force his way through anything.

At least he's better than the Mad Thinker. "If only I had calculated for [obvious variable]." feels like the Marvel equivalent of "I would have gotten away with it if not for you meddling kids".

I get that it's hard to write smart characters. It must be even harder to write smart villains since it's their job to lose. I think Lex Luther and Dr. Doom have so much staying power because they're among the few villains that can walk that line and often manage some sort of victory even in defeat.

[dan_ingram]

In defense of Leader vs. Hulk, Hulk has always been guided subconsciously by Bruce's intellect.

So Hulk isn't just some flailing moron. He's one of the strongest creatures on the planet, aimed in the correct, general direction by Bruce.

[tcampbell1000]

Mmmmm... I feel like most of the time, whatever steering Bruce was doing was like riding a bucking bronco: just a few seconds of very partial control here and there. He might be able to give the Savage Hulk a little flash of insight or make sure his rampage doesn't actually kill innocent people. But his input shouldn't make much difference if the Big Guy is trying to match "wits" with an intellect that, in theory, should outshine even Banner's on his best day.

[dan_ingram]

Hulk never really matched wits with Stern, though.

Just that, most of the time, he was swept up in Stern's BS. So Banner always pointed Hulk to where and when he needed to smash, and Hulk just leveled the battlefield.

[bravest_spinja]

Yeah, I think so called "evil geniuses" contributed a lot to comic' bad reputation, both in general corniness, and the suspect moral lesson of "muscle over mind". This is why Luthor was effectively comic relief (If very deft comic relief) in the Reeves movies, and why Evil CEO was one of the most well-received revamps in history. It makes him more formidable, and also provides a little more moral complexity to the Superman narrative.

[thehood]

In fact, didn't the Samuel Sterns persona say something similar in the Leader centric issue of Immortal Hulk? That Leader was too smart to learn.

[zachbeacon]

Actually believing he's too smart to learn might be a big part of what's been holding him back.

Granted, unlike most evil geniuses, he never had to work for his knowledge in the first place because it was gifted to him.

Honestly this discussion is making me think less of the Leader. Lazy bastard.

[dan_ingram]

Its a bit unfair to say the Leader is lazy, simply because he wasn't born with a high intellect. Once he gained his super intelligence, he applied himself the same way the Wizard and Thinker did.

And unlike them, he learned how to push his intelligence to greater heights

[starwolf_oakley]

The Leaders origin story (Tales of Astonish #63) shows him reading as many books as he can find while he is recovering from Gamma Ray exposure. (Comics, am I right?) And that's *before* he turns green and gets a big head. (Comics, am I right??)

So, Sam Sterns certainly studied and read a lot on his own. And "weaponizing" the Green Door shows a lot of imagination.

[thehood]

Not sure they're all that alike. The Leader is the Hulk's arch nemesis, Wizard can't say the same with his relationship with the F4.

And Hulk has had to save Jones from the Leader multiple times and then there's the current storyline where Leader is using Jones body as a puppet.

[zachbeacon]

The Wizard absolutely thinks he's Reed Richards' arch enemy and the Frightful Four are the Fantastic Four's greatest foes. He's completely wrong but he believes it.

The Leader being the Hulk's arch nemesis is more plausible but I can think of some characters (Abomination, Thunderbolt Ross, Brian Banner, Bruce himself, ect) that could also qualify.

For the record, a comparison isn't saying two things are exactly the same. The Wizard is an "As Seen on TV" product guy with delusions of grandeur. The Leader is a nobody who got super intelligence (among other powers) overnight and decided it would be a good idea to antagonize one of the strongest beings in the universe ... which really shows that there are different types of intelligence because that sounds lIke a very stupid idea.

Not sure where you're going with the Rick as an occasional hostage (when he's not saving the universe or whatever) thing. Do Robin's victories get erased because Batman has to rescue him sometimes?

[thehood]

Though in the case of Abomination he has worked with Leader and several adaptations have him as Leader's henchman. So there seems to be a hierarchy there.

[nyadnar17]

I agree with Ewing here. Its always bothered me that The Leader wasn't even in the top ten most smartest people, let alone in the running for number 1.

[lordultimus]

I did come up with a fanfic-y idea for the Leader's general competence - in essence, he set up a back-up plan that even he doesn't know about in an alternate personality that is slowly growing in intellect the more time passes that will eventually come into being and absorb the current dominant personality. The problem being that this personality is a creature of pure logic, and the Leader's emotions get in the way - in other words, the calmer he is, the smarter he is.

[thanekos]

' ..if Hulk really is the strongest one there is, then "will this villain prove stronger" is a non-question. Enemies have to challenge him on different ground.. '

If more stories were constructed along those lines, we'd have a lot less " This given character is overpowered, and overpowered is boring " discourse.