Juggernaut #2: How Green Is My Valley

[superboyprime]

"I think the friendship with Black Tom Cassidy allowed the character to start being seen in a new light. Chris Claremont teasing the inherent core conflict within him, combined with Charles Xavier’s mission with the X-Men tending to be aspirational and redemptive, subsequent writers saw the opportunities to explore more grey areas within Cain. On the flip side of that, unfortunately, Marvel can’t redeem all its villains or else they’d have no villains left, so that led to a constant yo-yoing in his status quo. Writer A explores a redemption arc for Cain, writer B follows that up by making him a villain, etc. I prefer him as a very grey good guy." - Fabian Nicieza

Comments

[mastermahan]

XAVIER: Sorry, Krakoa is only for mutants. And mutants with human family, like Jubilee's baby or Northstar's husband.

MARKO: ...Seriously? The only family I have are you and that Legion kid I've never gotten a chance to know. My long-term partner and possible boyfriend is running your island's security. I've been part of your X-Men! Doesn't that count for anything?

XAVIER: Nope! Bye!

[nyadnar17]

If there is anything that isn't synch across all the books its the "mutants only" policy.

Its so jarring and makes everyone excluded seem like such a personal, dickish, cruel shot.

[mindsweeper]

Well, in this case, Xavier probably is being personal and dickish. The Franklin rejection was on Slott but this I get.

I liked how Hickman, in the very first HOX issue, set up that even the Mutants have to ask Krakoa for permission to invite non-Mutants. It’s a sentient nation and it is a show of respect.

[thediiem]

The rules about how is allowed and who isn't has been so badly implemented, really. This and the no-clones rule for resurrections. Laura gets a pass because the whole "female clone of Wolverine" never held water with how her conception was described, but excluding Madelyn Pryor but letting the Cuckoos qualify is either rank hypocrisy or Marvel forgetting their character's history. And where the hell is Genesis? Of all characters he shouldn't be counted out of the X of Swords crossover, but here we are. What about alternate universe versions? Does Nate Grey not get resurrected since he has the same exact genome as Cable? Why exclude Deadpool at all? The experiments on him activated his latent X-gene, they didn't give him one that wasn't there. I really like the Krakoa idea and a lot of the characters and story in play, but jeez. Sorry, rant over.

[dr_archeville]

Why exclude Deadpool at all? The experiments on him activated his latent X-gene, they didn't give him one that wasn't there.

I thought the experiments grafted a copy of (at least part of) Wolverine's x-gene onto him, giving him Logan's healing factor?

[mastermahan]

Different versions. He's a mutant in the movies, but a mutated human in the comics.

Mind, Sinister's artificial x-gene is allowed to make him a mutant, but that's blatantly because they need him.

[deh_tommy]

Deadpool’s daughter is a mutant who hasn’t manifested her powers yet. Is she allowed on the island? Would she allow him on the island? Her power lets her resurrect herself every time she dies, so do the resurrection protocols apply to her?

Speaking of resurrections, is X-Statix alive now? If Deadgirl dies, do they resurrect her from the pods or do they wait for her to come back?

[thediiem]

That may be the story at this point, and if so I missed it and I'm sorry. Originally Weapon X just turned on an inactive X-gene, back when you could still make it to adulthood with an X-gene that never activated.

[tcampbell1000]

In a somewhat characteristic flash of candor, Emma admitted that they'd done some non-precognitive scenario modeling, and according to that, letting Deadpool into their system had like a 93% chance of ending in disaster for the entire nation.

So there's that. But I doubt anybody would consider Marko a similar risk factor.

[owlbrigade1]

Well I certainly hope the remain seven percent is rejecting him also leads to total chaos and Krakoa falling through a hole in reality, rooting for a hole here.

[thezmage]

From everything I’ve seen that same modeling should’ve kept most of the villains out as well

[sabertoothlotus]

"they'd done some non-precognitive scenario modeling,"

This reminds me... did we ever get a decent explanation for why all the precogs were kept off Krakoa? Is it just politics, and the Council doesn't want anybody who might know more than them?

[jlbarnett]

it looked to me like Hickman's setup suggests a no win scenario, for anything but technology based life, and they don't want that known. Although why I don't get. "Our society must last to the heat death of the universe or it's a failure" is a weird hill to die on

[mindsweeper]

It’s a Moira demand because Irene can see her mutation and burned her alive. Xavier and Magneto don’t know that part.

[thezmage]

Because everybody gets tired really quickly of the guy standing there yelling "This is a really, really bad idea that will end in tragedy for all involved" all the time

[buxnalaus]

Even then, they still allowed (and were willing to continue to allow) Deadpool access to the island. They just weren't willing to give him free reign with the island's transportation systems/residency.
Then he got mad at them for not giving him the cure for cancer (which they don't have), declared them fascists, stabbed a few people, and ran off in a sulk while a few of the X-Men tried to reason with him.

...so Deadpool kind of excluded himself.

As for Marko, he's a grown adult who can and has lived on his own. It's kind of like real life. If you qualify for residency/citizenship of a country, it makes sense for there to be rules to allow your spouse or child to qualify too, even if they might not be natives of that country. Your forty year old brother with a criminal record does not automatically get citizenship just because you did.

[themajesticmoose]

I mean

Cain Marko spent their childhood being physically and emotionally abusive to Charles on a daily basis and then spent 99% of their adulthood trying to violently murder him and everyone he cared about inbetween acts of random wanton carnage and murder. And that's not counting the time he tried to destroy an entire city while demonically posessed

Charles deciding he doesn't want the abusive brother (who sometimes gets posessed by a god of destruction and tries to brutally murder everyone) living on Krakoa seems perfectly reasonable and logical to me.

Human family and partners of mutants can live on Krakoa IF the mutant in question wants them to. It's mutantkind who has the final say which is as it should be because Krakoa is their nation. Charles doesn't want his frequently evil frequently homicidal brother living with him and that's more than fair.

Just like I'm sure mutants with bigoted human family members are very grateful that such trash are not allowed to ever set foot on Krakoa.

[tcampbell1000]

This is probably true, but it presents Charles with a dilemma: either admit that the bad blood is the real reason he doesn't want Juggernaut inducted, which could compromise the impartial image he seems to be going for, or lie, as he does here.

Either choice could cause some severe blowback down the line, but the more honest answer would make Charles's own behavior as head of state a hair less creepy and concerning.

[themajesticmoose]

This is probably true, but it presents Charles with a dilemma: either admit that the bad blood is the real reason he doesn't want Juggernaut inducted, which could compromise the impartial image he seems to be going for, or lie, as he does here.
.

I don't see the issue personally

Krakoa was created to be a safe place for all mutants where they could live in peace and, in the case of those who had done wrong, a second chance to redeem themselves and live better lives. It's existence is to give all mutantkind a haven away from any non-mutant threat where they can grow, prosper and live happily

The Juggernaut is one of the biggest non-mutant threats that the X-men have ever faced. His crimes against mutants are numerous and while he might not be a racist like the Purifiers or the Friends of Humanity he's still a human who has repeatedly threatened mutant lives. Letting him on Krakoa would go against the whole reason it exists

[tcampbell1000]

Well, that's a better argument, and therefore makes Charles out to be a better man. If it is a matter of principle then his personal issues with Cain aren't part of it, and maybe he is rising above those.

This does scrape up against some of the more bizarre aspects of Krakoa (such as the need to specify non-mutant threats to a community that includes plenty of mutant-killers who have politely promised not to kill mutants any more). But two wrongs don't make a right.

[buxnalaus]

We've seen that human children and spouses can live on Krakoa, which aligns with real world residency rules in most countries. I don't think we've seen a ruling of 'Your estranged human half-brother can live here'. So I don't think it's even Charles making a deliberate decision to exclude Cain, he's just... not a mutant.

[erikred]

BLACK TOM: ...and that's why I'm proposing to ye, ye great lummox! Get over here already!

BAM, problem solved. And a wedding!

[nightauditguy]

Hold up, when did Juggernaut come out of the closet?

[zachbeacon]

I think Chuck just doesn't want Cain knowing about the evil stuff he's up to. Between them and Cassandra, I think Juggernaut might be the "good" sibling.

[cainofdreaming]

Also, his skullcap makes him immune to telepathy. At least in the old armor it did. So he'd probably figure out the manipulation the first time he called the armor.

[donnblake]

Well, that's about as well as "capture the Hulk and scold him," could possibly have gone.

[armycat23]

This actually looks to be a promising series....and I love the fact that the Hulk pointed out the hypocrisy. I hope it gets pointed out to that black lady that the Hulk has done much more heroic things than the juggernaught(since she is the main one spearheading the hypocrisy). In a way, the Hulk is one of the best heroes, because without him, many other great heroes would have been smooshed under a mountain. Without those heroes, Earth would probably have been taken over by aliens or completely destroyed.

[starwolf_oakley]

As Amadeus Cho put it to Reed Richards, "He may be a monster, but he's also a hero." Or something like that.

[dan_ingram]

I know Hulk has plot armor when being held to account for his actions and destruction, but I could do without actual crisis actors, personally.

[donnblake]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think these were crisis actors? Hulk considers the possibility, when he asks if any of them work for Roxxon, and then dismisses their complaints as misdirected against the wrong Hulk personality, but I didn't see any indication that any of their complaints were manufactured or insincere.

Now, that said, I don't think that Devil Hulk's dismissal really holds water- it suggests he believes the correct action would have been to go after the Big Guy, and Devil Hulk is nearly as protective of that personality as he is of Banner (IE, terrifyingly so).

[phantomfo]

Plus, this was around a time in his own title where Hulk went to war against Roxxon, who retaliated with a coordinated attack that included public manipulation efforts and staged crises, culminating in an effort to brainwash the entire planet through assorted media platforms. They mention YouRoxx, who's servers were destroyed by a Hulk attack in his own book.

[cainofdreaming]

And blaming Savage is kind of like blaming a mentally ill person for their mental illness, isn't it?