scans_daily | Magnificent Ms. Marvel #17

From:

Yay, Duggan, being moderately sensible and not an authoritarian thug!

Zoe, you suck. Like, objectively.
Oh, look. Another round of Stupid Person Blames The Hero.
"Tell you what, Zoe, you fight the giant robots, supervillains and aliens, and when it's done, I'll blame you for it all? Sound fair? No? Alright, then."

From:

beyondthefringe

I really want to believe that Zoe has good intentions but is just bad at implementing them, which feels in line with her long-term character development as "mean girl" to "loyal friend" with a coming out arc along the way.

But frankly, I dislike the whole Outlawed storyline which, thanks to the pandemic, has lasted WAY longer than necessary and hasn't really gotten anywhere that wasn't previously explored in the Civil War and Avengers Initiative era...

From:

chortles81

I remember that the theme as described by Ewing was supposed to be 'the Zoomers vs. the Boomers', complete with a 'Greta Thunberg' analog in Outlawed.

Although, the aftermath is continuing into Champions (2020)' recently-announced second arc with an app company in support of keeping Kamala's Law around.

From:

tcampbell1000

On the one hand, I'm happy Duggan is true to his established character. He'll follow orders that don't sit right with him, but only so far.

On the other, Marvel's skittishness about "apoliticality" has really put this C.R.A.D.L.E. event in a weird place. Like, I think Marvel really wanted to tell a story about a bunch of shitty cops just going hog-wild on super-kids, which would be more typical shortsighted stupidity from the Marvel citizenry, but it would also resonate pretty well with the era of kids in cages and unchecked police power. You saw that vibe in Outlawed and you still get flashes of it in Champions.

But somebody somewhere on the org chart at Marvel or Disney was probably like "We don't really need a Blue Lives Matter boycott," so you get scenarios like this one and Power Pack, where the rank and file may be looking to do some beatdowns but the cops in charge are reasonable, world-weary, and honestly they just want to say they tried to enforce this dumb shit so they can go home without actually putting anybody in prison for saving lives. Certainly makes key characters more likable, but feels a little, I dunno, dishonest? At least Duggan takes more convincing than a single scene of lawyering, but still.

We're just lucky Gyrich is too busy Hulkbusting right now to focus on this, is all I'm saying. Put Henry Peter on this and then you'll see some bruises.

From:

themajesticmoose

"Superheroes put people in danger"

Is an arguement that makes about as much sense as "If we get rid of firemen, no buildings will burn down"

From:

dcbanacek

"Defund the police and there will be no crime."

From:

strejdaking

Nobody says that.

From:

themajesticmoose

Superheroes in fiction are nothing like the violent hateful bigots which are pigs in real life. Captain America doesn't go around shooting unarmed black teenagers in the back and calling it self defence. Superman doesn't help fascists lock children in cages

That's why I compared superheroes to firemen, who are people who actively work to save lives and protect people

All Cops Are Bastards

Superheroes...at least the kind of superheroes I enjoy reading about and spend money on...are not

Edited Date: 2021-01-21 12:28 pm (UTC)

From:

deh_tommy

You know, I’m curious: what does a corrupt fireman look like?

Why does everyone always use pig as an insult? Pigs are good! Pigs are smart! Why do we gotta demean pigs like that by comparing them to corrupt police?

From:

themajesticmoose

All I can think of is that Simpsons episode where they're looting burning buildings 0_0

And that is a fair point

Pigs are good and lovely animals they do not deserve to be compared to racists and murderers

From:

arilou_skiff

Firemen actually used to be fairly (in)famously corrupt. basically charging protection money ("Oh wait, you didnt contribute, guess no one has time to put out the fire on your house...") and acting as mafia/street gangs.

Heres a huffpost article about it: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/firefighting-in-the-1800s_b_247936

From:

scorntx

-Pigs are good! Pigs are smart!-

Y'ever read Animal Farm?
Pigs are too smart...

From:

themajesticmoose

Pigs: Four legs good, two legs bad

Me: What about kangaroos

Pigs: get off this farm

From:

cricharddavies

It is frequently alleged that firemen, while exploring the ruins of fire-destroyed buildings, will steal anything that hasn't been too badly-damaged.

From:

crabby_lioness

Actually, my town DID defund the police, and crime DID go down. I served jury duty afterwards. It took less than a day, with the remaining law enforcement officers begging us not to approve any case that they couldn't win in court. They literally couldn't afford to pay for a trial they could lose.

From:

deh_tommy

Eh, given how ACAB is a thing I can see people believing that (especially with ~~the not-SHRA~~ Kamala’s Law only recently coming into effect).

From:

strejdaking

Do superheroes in Marvel have issue raically motivated brutality and excesive lethal violence?

From:

deh_tommy

Probably not racially motivated, but brutality, excessive force and collateral damage are well explored tropes in superhero stories.

From:

velacron

But they're not fighting fire. They're fighting crime. With violence.

Fictional characters do whatever the writers make them do. Superhero comics require you to suspend your disbelief and accept that literally world-ending threats in this universe are fought primarily by volunteer vigilantes acting out of selflessness in a consistently heroic fashion. That is the premise. In a slightly more realistic universe, where fighting super-crime is delegated to some law enforcement agency, yes, there presumably would be an issue with excessive force - rather more so when fighting super-villains.

In that case, would you argue in favor of defunding and disbanding these agencies? Keep in mind that it absolutely doesn't have to be a binary choice between either that or gladly accepting any level of police brutality whatsoever without questions or accountability. It should be neither.

From:

themajesticmoose

People are right to say ACAB though.

The police force in america is literally infested with literal nazis and general worthless white supremacist trash. You just have to look at how many of those filthy animals took part in the terrorist attack on january 6th.

And the "Good cops" are doing absolutely nothing to get rid of the bad ones. If cops don't want people to think that they're all bastards then they need to start taking action to fire the bigoted scum that infests their ranks.

Clean up the force, fire all of the racists and homophobes and transphobes and general bigoted or corrupt assholes and actually Protect and Serve like their badges say they're supposed to and then cops might earn peoples respect.

Superheroes don't go around beating, murdering and harassing minorities. Superheroes don't cover up murders they committ by planting evidence on the body of the person they just killed in a hate crime. Superheroes don't blindly support and follow unjust laws.

There's a huge difference between hating a group that's institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic and routinely murders innocent people just for the color of their skin and hating on individuals who use their powers on supervillains, monsters and literal alien invasions out of a desire to protect innocents from harm and keep people safe.

Edited Date: 2021-01-21 12:31 pm (UTC)

From:

lordultimus

Does that include Eugene Goodman?

From:

silicondream

That's true, but Marvel's always been about grey areas and uncertainty. Steve Rogers is a great guy, but how do you know the Cap who's punching people in front of you is Steve Rogers and not his evil Hydra duplicate, or one of the men who periodically replace him in the role and then go insane? Can you afford to trust him?

And it's not just because Marvel civilians are famously stupid. If you live in 616 you've probably seen the Dark Avengers or the Thunderbolts or, I dunno, the Purifiers in action. You've probably heard of antiheroes like the Punisher or Wolverine or the Hulk, who tend to leave a trail of massive property damage and/or corpses in their wake. You are used to your government portraying all mutants as a threat and visible mutant heroes as terrorists. You are used to actual mutant terrorists publicly threatening entire cities, or the entire planet. You saw Stamford on the news and lived through all the Civil War nonsense. You saw the Phoenix Five and the Inhumans disrupt millions of lives. Your newspaper carried decades of "SPIDER-MAN: THREAT OR MENACE??" articles.

With that background, it's entirely reasonable to suspect that the average superdude in spandex might be a serious threat. Even if they claim to be a "good guy."

From:

chortles81

leaned on the whole "how do we know you're good-universe Steve, much less anyone else believing it (or us if we say you are)?" thing...

From:

silicondream

Also:

And the "Good cops" are doing absolutely nothing to get rid of the bad ones. If cops don't want people to think that they're all bastards then they need to start taking action to fire the bigoted scum that infests their ranks.

You're talking about a massively flawed institution, though, and some of its flaws make it incredibly difficult for a "good cop" to get rid of a bad one. Many cops have tried to whistleblow, and they usually end up jobless, jailed or dead.

I know several people who were, as far as I know, "good cops." None of them are police officers any more, because they ended up hating their jobs and their bosses, but there are always going to be some people (especially people of color) who join the force with high ideals.

The problem is not that all cops are inherent bastards. The problem is that the typical US police department is a carefully designed instrument of social oppression that teaches, reinforces and rewards hyperdominant behavior and reflexive violence. And the majority of Americans, especially white Americans, still seem to approve of that.

From:

themajesticmoose

Except as you point out, all the people you know who were good cops aren't cops any longer. This post supports my point. There are no "Good cops" because the good people on the force either end up quitting or being fired because of the system of racism and corruption on the force or something even worse happens to them

So maybe it would be more accurate to say that good people don't STAY cops for very long. Or if they do, it means they've stopped being good people.

When people say All Cops Are Bastards it's not saying cops are some alien species that are born evil. It's saying that the job attracts people who are hateful, bigoted, vile pieces of work and that the few good people who join either don't last long or become as corrupt as the assholes around them

Edited Date: 2021-01-22 10:56 am (UTC)

From:

owlbrigade1

If I were in her position my reply would be that the next time a giant whatever that needs fighting storms through, then I wouldn't put her at risk by rescuing her. I'd be very bad at being a hero, if I'm honest.

From:

deh_tommy

When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.

That, and she knows Kamala personally and is probably just as worried for her safety/well-being.

From:

zachbeacon

So Zoe is back to being the person she was in issue one volume one? Wow, this series has gone downhill fast.

From:

beyondthefringe

Issue 1 Zoe: vapid, superficial, conformist, at least somewhat racist/prejudiced/ignorant/take your pick.

Current Zoe: Less conformist, more complicated, more accepting and tolerant. Also legitimately worried for her friends and family, including Kamala, after seeing some serious shit go down.

I'm not saying what Zoe did is right by a long shot, but I don't think she's backslid to her self as originally portrayed. I think she's making a dumb teenager mistake to try and help a friend. The previous issue goes into more details about how she was the first to see Kamala in the wake of the accident, how it gave her nightmares, and I think she betrayed Ms. Marvel in an misguided attempt to help.

Is Zoe flawed? Oh most definitely. But can I understand her line of thinking as laid out in the storyline? Yeah.

You know, given the way that Outlawed is really just confined to a handful of books, I almost feel bad for Ahmed, as he's had to do a lot of the heavy lifting in Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales to try and work with it. I wonder if this would have fared better if the scheduling hadn't been thrown all out of whack by the pandemic.

From:

themajesticmoose

Yeah I would say that Zoe made a stupid mistake here but I don't think it makes her evil or means she's a terrible person and has gone back to being the jerk ass she was at the series beginning