Are Wolverine and Emma Frost hypocrites?

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

In House of M #1, Wolverine and Emma are the only ones who say that Wanda should be killed.


Xavier says he can't. Emma asks Strange, who says he's still researching.





Yet...

Wolverine is still trying to protect his son Daken,  who's a rapist, a murderer, and an all-around scumbag.

And in X-Men: Phoenix - Warsong, Emma swears revenge on the Phoenix entity for wiping out all the Cuckoo clones (with the exception of the Three-in-One), despite the fact that Sublime had created them to destroy mutantkind and that they had almost done so beforehand.

So why is it okay to kill Wanda but not Daken or the Cuckoos?

Comments

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

Both Emma and Logan operate on a "case by case" basis.

[ulf_boehnke.insanejournal.com]

I think it's more of a "writer by writer" basis.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Because it's different when they're your babies. You're sure you can fix them, and damn all consequences otherwise. Whereas anyone else, even someone who's been your friend for any length of time, deserves to be shot in the head if they go insane and do something bad.

Or at least that's how it always goes in fiction. I couldn't tell you anything about the mindset in real life.

[aaron_bourque.insanejournal.com]

Because it's different when they're your babies

Heh. Didn't Wanda do what she did because of her babies?

[sherkahn.insanejournal.com]

See, there is a difference. There will be survivors, and Dakken isn't a shark on two feet that kills anything in its path, like Victor Creed. He's sadistic and cruel, but people live through it. Logan feels Dakken can be redeemed, and everyone in the room has a fighting chance against him, one-on-one.

Wanda, at this point in time, is a reality warper, who may kill anyone of them on a whim.

Do you remember that old, classic Twilight Zone episode where a little kid is a monster, because he's become omnipotent, he's a reality warper? The entire Earth has been "sent to the corn fields" and only that little neighborhood and it's few survivors exist, because the kid wills it? People live and die at his whim, and monstrosities are made for his amusement.

"That's a good thing, you did, Anthony."

That's the Scarlet Witch right now.
But instead of being a spoiled brat who can be reasoned with, she is mentally and emotionally unstable. And before she causes any global harm that would be on a planetary scale, one of the logical options on the table should be to take her out.

As for the Cuckoos, there were viable options to neutralizing them. And they did not respresent the threat to all reality that Wanda did.

[silverzeo.insanejournal.com]

But then again, how many other superpowered being, namely those of Superman or Dr. Strange's level of powers, have gone insane, risk destroying the world, but didn't?

And this also brings up the issue way is nearly every other hero today is going for the "Kill" option for solving their problems?

[silverzeo.insanejournal.com]

The answer is simple my friends, the writers. They think Emma and Wolverine are emotional detached, thus making them as much jerks as the enforcers of the Superhuman Registration Act, doing what they think is right while being complete jerks about it.

[kenn_el.insanejournal.com]

That's the problem with trying to present every problem as if there are multiple sides. Someone has to take the idiotic stance. It was Emma and Logan's turn.

[jaybee3.insanejournal.com]

Sure, they're hypocrites - based on who's writing them.

One thing I've always noticed is that comic book readers actually pay more attention to character continuity than the people who put out the books do (most of the time at least). How many times have we seen writers who haven't done the research on the characters they're supposed to be giving lines to?

[silverzeo.insanejournal.com]

Writers like to put their touch on things that hardly know.

My answer is Yes, but

[freezer818.insanejournal.com]

A) Really, when has Emma not been a hypocrite?

B) Logan would probably admit as such, but wouldn't change his actions one iota.

[xlineartx.insanejournal.com]

CRAZY EYES. Aaah, Logan stop it.

I think part of the Daken problem is that anything but a redemption arc would be emotionally unsatisfying, but rape is such a moral event horizon that it's pretty impossible to do. I still want Laura to kidnap him and beat some morals into him, though. I don't know how it would happen but I think maybe Kitty and Jubes would have to get involved.

BUT THOSE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON DAKEN.

I think also that Logan and Emma both know that if Wanda were sane, she'd rather die than continue on as she has been doing, probably because, in her position, they'd feel the same way.

THAT SAID, I hate this whole thing. House of M, why are you so terrible and depressing.

[darkknightjrk.insanejournal.com]

"I think also that Logan and Emma both know that if Wanda were sane, she'd rather die than continue on as she has been doing, probably because, in her position, they'd feel the same way."

That would definately be the case with Logan--if someone was able to kill him before he hurt/killed as many heroes as he did during the Enemy of the State arc, he probably wouldn't have minded.

[lencannon.insanejournal.com]

Of course, in retrospect, they totally should have killed Wanda.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

House of M wouldn't have happened if Quicksilver wasn't convinced the others were planning on killing Wanda, which Wolverine and Emma were.

[arilou_skiff.insanejournal.com]

Yes, that's kind of their point.

Although I think they'd use words like "conflicted", but there's really not much difference.

[zechs27.insanejournal.com]

But isn't this also before Wolverine found out he had a son?

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

Yeah,though I don't think it would make a difference. It's not like Wolverine is a kinder or more forgiving person now.

[stig.insanejournal.com]

Wasn't that pizza originally a cigar?

[hearthemvoices.insanejournal.com]

Daken committed rape?

[chains_of_irony.insanejournal.com]

Poster may mean his pheremone powers (which yes, is technically rape). Or is there another incident I've not read about?

[chains_of_irony.insanejournal.com]

When I read this question, I thought it might be about the Scott/Jean marriage and Emma and Logan's attempts to break it up. I'm sure I got the impression that Logan's treatment of Emma and Scott was hypocritcal (considering he'd tried to break up S + J) but I'm not sure where from.

Here - Daken's not currently a world-ending threat, is he?And the Cuckoos - were they a current threat? Logan and Emma would give Wanda time to change, but here, there IS no time left. That's the impression I get.

[unknownscribler.insanejournal.com]

Not to mention that even if you as a parent recognise the need to perform the ultimate sanction on your offspring, doesn't mean you'll ever let anyone else do it

[perletwo.insanejournal.com]

Okay, here's my TL;DR thought about the debate scene. They're positing Crazy!Wanda as a Phoenix-level threat here. Based on my readings of the actual Dark Phoenix storyline and similar setups, if it comes down to a last stand then whoever's the last hero making it will be doing this exact same calculus in their heads. Flipped around, team leaders do a similar battlefield calculus before asking a teammate to go to near-certain or certain death.

It's hella hard, it sucks, and the Avengers aren't wrong to want to exhaust every other possible option (in this case Dr. Strange) first - but Emma and Wolvie are just bringing it to the table ahead of time. Emma could be more tactful (is she a dog?) but given the impact Phoenix was shown to have on the entire X-team of time, I'm not surprised it's Wolvie who says he expects them to do the same for him.

Killing Daken simply for being "a rapist, a murderer, and an all-around scumbag" would be jumping the gun - the supes are sworn to leave those to courts to adjudicate on case-by-case bases. (See also, DC's Dr. Light and the Joker.) Should Daken rise to Phoenix-level threat, then lethal force would be appropriate to consider.

I'm not familiar with the Cuckoo storyline, so I can't speak to that one; I guess my question would be, how close to the wire had it come to the Cuckoos being a Dark Phoenix-level threat to mutantkind? If the PE struck before all options were exhausted, Emma might be justified in hard feelings after the fact - clones and timebombs the Cuckoos may have been, if I understand the description given here, but they were human and they were Emma's responsibility.
[/tl;dr]

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

Killing Daken simply for being "a rapist, a murderer, and an all-around scumbag" would be jumping the gun - the supes are sworn to leave those to courts to adjudicate on case-by-case bases. (See also, DC's Dr. Light and the Joker.) Should Daken rise to Phoenix-level threat, then lethal force would be appropriate to consider.

Wolverine had no problem with chasing Mystique all over the desert before gutting her and leaving her to die, and I don't think she was a Phoenix-level threat.

I've been wondering...

[(Anonymous)]

I'm perpetually surprised that no one ever asked Captain "There is always a way" America which methods he used on the scads of German soldiers he cut through when he was fighting Nazi Germany? Or did he use 'rage math' on them?

Re: I've been wondering...

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

The difference is he was killing in the heat of battle, not murdering a mentally ill woman.

[(Anonymous)]

It's different because Wolverine believes Daken can be saved, that the reason he's like this is the product of his upbringing/Romulus' machinations. And The Cuckoos have proven that they are capable of thinking for themselves, and as such whether they were built to destroy the planet or not it does not appear that they will.

The case with the Scarlet Witch however, at this point, is being said to be pointless. Xavier, the world's most powerful telepath cannot help her with her issues, and he says that he cannot control her dangerous and rapidly fluctuated powers. Strange also says there is nothing he knows of to help her, and so we are being shown a case where all possible attempts to help her have proved fruitless and for the safety of the world she may have to be killed. Wolvie and Emma rather callously go about putting it out there, but they really aren't wrong to do so in this situation, nor is it hypocritical of them to not consider it in the case of their own children.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Okay, momentarily ignoring the callousness, let's take a look at the untrue "all other options have been exhausted" bit.

I still point out the obvious, as mentioned in another comment of mine. This entire plotline ignored the fact that there was yet another "safe removal of mutant powers" plotline going on in X-Men at the same time. A plotline that Xavier, Wolverine, and Emma all three especially should have known about, not just because it pertains to mutantdom, but because they were part of that story. The fact that it never even gets brought up in this scene as a potential option to avoid death, especially by Xavier, who's clearly reluctant to kill Wanda, is just utterly stupid on the writer's part.

[menagerie.insanejournal.com]

Matter of perspective. Daken can kill a few people. Wanda can destroy and alter entire realities. I think I'd be a great deal more worried about Wanda out of the two.

[taggerung301.insanejournal.com]

Wanda could trash the entire planet
Daken is an asshole, but he isn't the most dangerous threat out there

talking about who gets to live and who dies always feels dirty, but it seems pretty straightforward to me here

[jlbarnett.insanejournal.com]

they didn't know that at the time.

[octopussoir.insanejournal.com]

I can't deal with House of M seriously. Floating Hands has forever made it better for me.

"Kitty you've been voted off."
"B-but Emma made everyone think of me!"
"But they were still thinking of you."
"Professor Xavier is such a jerk! Uhuhuhuhuha~"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj6p2pV1XXg

[proteus_lives.insanejournal.com]

It's his son. That changes everything. It makes no sense and is hypocritical but it's human.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, no. I mean, yeah, they are hypocrites, but not with regard to this particular matter. The Scarlet Witch is a crazy bitch who could end the fucking world on a whim, whereas Daken is a common murderer and the Cuckoos are... Well, they're a significant psi-talent, yes, but their abilities are still quite limited.

That said, I would have no problem with anyone who tried to gack Daken. He's an evil little shit, and sleazy to boot.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

. Well, they're a significant psi-talent, yes, but their abilities are still quite limited.

The Three-in-One, yes. What Phoenix wiped out was the thousands of other Cuckoo clones created by Sublime.

[haljordan888.insanejournal.com]

Wanda reality-altering mutant with massive powers.

The Cuckoos and Daken, not as powerful as her. That is the difference.

[tsunamiwombat]

Wolverine? No, Wolverine is just a hardass. EMMA is a hypocrite, a bitch, and a whore and needs to die.