NS: Falcon and the Winter Soldier discussion

[deh_tommy]

The show just wrapped up so I thought this could be a good place to talk about things. What did you think of the series? Was that good? Bad? A bit of both? Please feel free to talk amongst yourselves. Beware of spoilers!

Comments

[deh_tommy]

I haven’t actually seen the show myself, but judging by the fanart and comic pages that’s reaching my Reddit feed I’m gonna take a wild guess and say Sam’s become Captain America. Yay! But I am kind of bitter that only now do people seem to appreciate him as the next Captain America.

[mistersandman]

Yeah, maybe the timeline is running together in my head since I wasn't reading monthly comics for a few years, but it feels like immediately after Sam became Captain America, he got turned evil from the SIXIS event and then as soon as he processed that baggage, he got bogged down in Secret Wars and Secret Empire, which were both all about Steve. It's like he never got a chance to catch on or a big event in the spotlight.

Even in Captain America and the Mighty Avengers, a book that I love dearly, Sam felt like a guest star a lot of the time despite being nominally the lead character.

[akodo_rokku]

One advantage of the MCU is that they *can't* go back and make Steve Rogers Captain America again.

[mazway_75]

I thought very strong overall. I read they had to cut some stuff down in production for issues (seems Joaquin was being set up to become the new Falcon) but still very good and loved the depth.

The appearance of Isaiah Bradley was a nice surprise and JLD's cameo was a true unexpected delight. The Sharon stuff dark but oddly fit for her character arc and interested in how it develops.

Plus, loved how they nailed John Walker, not a bad guy but not right for Cap and coming around in the end. I'm annoyed the talk at some spots of "they wimped out not making him the villain" when it's much better he remains the complex guy wanting to do right on his own means.

So yes, overall, very good and look forward to how it develops for Captain America 4.

[cyberghostface]

Yeah people who wanted him to be a flat-out villain clearly don’t know who the character is. I am surprised they had him come around at the end though.

[shakalooloo]

So happy to see people thanking superheroes for saving them again. It feels like an age since I last witnessed that.

Val though, seems totally tonally out of place. I found her to be way too quippy and kinda annoying. Maybe dial that down just a few dozen notches.

[stubbleupdate]

It's wildly inconsistent, with some really good bits (Walker's arc) and some bits of nonsense (the shield cutting into trees, and also able to be blocked by Batroc's forearms)

It seems like a first draft. I get that they had to cut a lot of things out of it, and rewrite it, but i feel like it would have benefitted from having a bit more time to get it ready for the screen.

[onsokumaru]

The first couple of episodes didn't convince me (expect the awesome flight scene in #1) but it kept getting better and better.
I'm so glad that they didn't go the lazy road of making Walker evil. The introduction of Isaiah and Patriot was great. Karli was a nice antagonist too (if they come to their senses and make a Spider Punk movie, she'd make a great Captain Anarchist).
I'm still surprised about Sharon. I know she was quite hated by some toxic shipers and I hope it's not the reason she ended the way she did.
The worst part of the show was Batroc. I'll never forgive the MCU for making him such an antipathic and boring character. How is it that Drax, Starlord, and even Ultron can be funny in the MCU but Batroc of all people has to be dead serious?

I love Sam's Captain America costume (so tired of black/dark suits in super hero movies) and the way he uses his wing in fights.

[mrstatham]

I think with Sharon it's less the shipping and more having to fix the poor storytelling surrounding the character; she got dealt the worst hand from Civil War and the Russos deciding to give Steve a really awkward happy ending in writing Chris Evans out of the franchise.

[akodo_rokku]

The downside of casting a non-actor as Batroc, sadly.

[steverodgers5]

Yeah, I really like Sam's Captain America costume. I actually think it works better in the show than it did in the books. It's like a breath of fresh air to see a brightly clad proper superhero costume again.

I think Ultron only ended up with humour from Whedon doing it. And Starlord from having Chris Pratt cast in the role. And even in the books Drax is all over the place as far as different takes on him are concerned.

But yeah, I share your pain on Batroc. That and the treatment of Sharon, and the needless dispatching of Battlestar have really left a bitter taste in my mouth about the show. I don't see why they couldn't have had Walker go over the edge from having his parents targeted like they were in the books.

[owlbrigade1]

I still think Karli was right, and that Same and Bucky were fighting on the wrong side. I know Disney tried to make it seem like they were wrong, and gave Same a pretty speech about how someday someone would do something about some of the inequity, but it didn't land at all. Every successful political change has been on the back of some form of violence.

[cyberghostface]

Violence is one thing, deliberately killing innocent people is another.

[crabby_lioness]

26% of violent protest movements succeed. 54% of nonviolent protest movements succeed, mostly because up 80% of the people are willing to join them in the streets. That's a lot greater success rate for nonviolent protests.

The figures are from Humankind, by Rutger Bregman. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52879286-humankind

[silverhammerman]

The only thought I have about it at present is that I thought Marvel had learned their lesson about comics-style headsocks with Captain America's bad costume in the first Avengers movie, but they went right ahead and put Sam in one with silly bug-eye goggles for his big speech at the end. I expect we'll see the costume revised when he next turns up, since that's usually the case with the movies, but it's still weird.

[stubbleupdate]

The finale had the biggest "Fuck 'em up!" moment when Walker appeared, shouted MORGENTHAU! and Karli told him that i don’t want to hurt people that don’t matter

[cyberghostface]

Zemo and John Walker were the best parts IMO.

[mrstatham]

Zemo, absolutely. Can't believe they managed to pull off a pretty accurate take on his comic outfit, ermine and all.

[iamrman]

I was disappointed at Sharon being the Power Broker. I was hoping it was going to be somebody a bit less obvious. The thing that upset me most was killing off Batroc. He wasn't nearly as ridiculous as he is in the comics, but still.

Overall, I liked the series though. It was quite moving in some parts (the Bucky trauma and the Isaiah Bradley scenes). I am glad Walker wasn't an out-and-out villain as well. Certainly more nuanced than his comics counterpart.

[scorntx]

I think it is odd that after making such a big deal on how the Dora wanted Zemo's head on a stick, they suddenly decide they want him alive so he can escape another prison when they make Thunderbolts.

Upset at Batroc being evil and dying... but here's hoping his brother shows up to avenge heem. Er, him. By being a French-accented nuisance, rather than actually evil.

Sharon being PB... *sigh*
Saw it coming, because of the whole dancing around who the Power Broker was, but still.
(I don't even have an opinion on Sharon, but making her evil...)

... after so many times with the films changing costumes to look more movie-ish, Sam's Cap outfit actually being a dead ringer for his comic costume is... kinda weird.

Holding out hope the next Cap gives us the Serpent Society, because we're obviously not going to get a live-action Cap Wolf.
(Or Bucky Wolf, I guess. C'mon. Bucky would make an adorable werewolf.)


Still pissed they killed Battlestar.

[iamrman]

CapWolf is goodest boy.

[janegray]

I hate what they did to Batroc.

[steverodgers5]

Yeah, that was such a waste..

[mistersandman]

My friend thought the John Walker Captain America costume looked awkward and I responded that the awkwardness had to be intentional, like a riff on Macbeth. He isn't Captain America, so the costume doesn't quite fit.

Then I saw Mackie's costume today and I feel like I was being too generous before.

The new Captain America costume looks weirdly baggy around the shoulders and the head buttressing looks uncomfortable, like Michael Keaton Batman uncomfortable. I have to wonder if there an issue with fitting the costume because of COVID-19 precautions? I can't even give them points for their 1:1 translation of the comics Sam Wilson Captain America costume because I've never really liked that design. Sure, it's a good marriage of Falcon's classic costume and the traditional Captain America design, but unfortunately, the classic Falcon design kind of sucks.

They iterate on these costumes every movie, so hopefully in the upcoming Captain America movie(!) we'll see something better. I actually liked the Falcon suits in Civil War and the beginning of this series and it would be nice to see a Cap uniform rooted in those designs instead of the classic Falcon one from the comics.

Superhero fashion very much aside, I liked the series. All I really wanted from the show was fun moments between Sam and Bucky, which the series had in spades, plus a delightful performance from Daniel Brühl.

[deh_tommy]

Maybe that’s because I always liked his Captain America design, but I think Anthony Mackie’s new suit looks pretty good. If I had to give out about one thing, maybe there’s not enough red (on the wings in particular), but overall I think he looks great. I’m glad to see something so unapologetically superhero-y after how samey some of the MCU super-suits can get. Whatever’s comfortable for the actors is important, though.

[akodo_rokku]

The pacing was a mess. It really felt like it started life as a film and then got turned into a series.

The Sharon reveal at the end makes everything that happened in Madripoor make no sense. I'd No Prize it by saying Sharon simply knew better than to try and stop Sam and Bucky: that once they'd gotten involved the best thing she could do was play the ally and ride that to whatever prize it took her to. And it took her to a pretty good one. I really hope she and the Contessa are working together, it might be a better earned 'girl power' bit than the Endgame one was.

Episode 5 was the best episode by far. I don't think I really need to explain that one.

I still, personally, hate Sam's cap costume. It was ugly in the comics, and it looks WORSE in real life. Compared to his Falcon look in this series, his Cap suit looks like a Schumacher Batsuit. It just needs nipples. Hopefully they can do *something* to spruce it up for his next appearance.

I do look forward to James Buchanan Barnes marrying into the Wilson family and becoming Uncle Buck, though.

[mastermahan]

Personally, I felt Walker's redemption was unearned. Suppose a cop beats a suspect to death. If he manages to do the the right thing the next time he's on a call, that doesn't mean he's a good cop now. I didn't want him to be straight evil, but that's nowhere near enough.

[cyberghostface]

I don’t really care that John Walker killed a terrorist who was complicit in mass murder.

[starwolf_oakley]

In the comics, John Walker is a more tragic character. By CAPTAIN AMERICA #350, it is clear the Red Skull had a plan: put someone not Steve Rogers as the new Captain America, new Cap goes crazy under the stress.

John Walker's parents getting killed by the Watchdogs was what really drove him over the edge. Once we learn the Red Skull is secretly controlling the Watchdogs (again, CAP #350), that means they killed the Walkers on Skull's orders.

The Disney+ series doesn't seem to be saying "John Walker was driven crazy by the Red Skull to mess with Steve Rogers somehow." Not YET anyway. (We don't know who the villain in CAPTAIN AMERICA 4 is.)

[akodo_rokku]

Well there's no reason to make anything about Steve. His character arc ended and he's done. His presence loomed large over this whole series of course, because it was in many ways about that legacy.

And the Red Skull is on that random planet watching over the Soul Gem Lady Pit forever.

[zachbeacon]

I find myself wondering why this was a show and not a movie. WandaVision made sense because it was a weird experimental thing. Most of the shows were either low budget, needed more time, or were just fairly inconsequential. This felt like it could have been edited as a movie (especially in a world where Endgame exists).