Batman #109

[cyberghostface]

 

Comments

[tinygaylaura]

I really hope that "Peacekeeper 01" here ends up dropped into a trash compactor. It would be a fitting fate given that the "Person" inside that tin can is in fact garbage

Also

Simon Saint is another example of why Batman really needs to just let Ghostmaker do his thing in Gotham

I'm just saying

It's very hard for creepy little fascist scum like this to threaten anyone if they've had their head sliced in half with a katana

No Kill Rule Loopholes

[blue_bolt]

The thing is that a no-kill rule in comicbooks really doesn't stop you from having so many other ruthless options. Erase Simon's Memory? EZ. Pump him full of Scarecrow toxin? Easy. Medically induced coma followed by a John Doe showing up at a hospital outside Gotham? Easy-ish. There's no real a no-kill rule can't involve Batman using oh so many loopholes. Honestly, I like it when he points out to villains that while he won't kill them he will break their arms and legs. He has a no kill rule, not a "no do serious lasting damage to the human body" rule.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[tinygaylaura]

Given what a talented hacker Oracle is I have to imagine it would be easy for Bruce to destroy people like Simon Saint to such a degree that they would WISH you had killed them if he just fought them smarter

Bruce

Don't waste your time threatening him

Just have Oracle hack all his accounts and steal every cent he owns

And then also leak every embarassing secret to the press

Job done

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[blue_bolt]

^This. I'm tired of writers treating the no-kill rule like Bruce has to wear kid gloves. He's supposedly one of the smartest people in a fictional universe of super geniuses right? About the only thing I did like about the Batman Who Laughed (who I found otherwise to be a boring edgelord) was that his worse acts of villainy were non-lethal. Bruce is more than capable of bringing back the fear. Blinding your foes, paralyzing them, trapping them in a VR simulation, pumping them full of Scarecrow toxin while playing videos of their crimes ala A Clockwork Orange. He could make Gotham a place that other villains are afraid to tread. But he won't, because he has to a be dysfunctional stubborn man who struggles to communicate his feelings but is a real softy deep down cliche (depending on the writer), or he's the "Batgod" who somehow manages to change nothing (because DC and Marvel thrive on status quo).

I know Joker Immunity stems from not wanting to have to replace popular villains, but at this point they really need to consider changing the status quo. After everything that has happened in DC and Marvel their USA resembles our own far too much for me to suspend disbelief. This plotline isn't even outside of recent history. We've got police departments in the USA who bought decommissioned tanks from the Army. Replace Peacekeeper with a Lenco BearCat G3 and you've got 'name a random southern state.'

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[cyberghostface]

I don’t think Batman should be torturing people like that.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[blue_bolt]

The original conception of Batman was centered almost entirely around him scaring criminals. I can't remember the last time he scared villains away from Gotham. His ninja tactics were supposed to make him terrifying. And it did, but due to villain escalation and him being a public figure in the Justice League he's lost enough mystique that he might really need to rebrand. He could always manufacture fake villains (think Matches) and then torture them (somehow that turned into kinky self-bondage undercover Bruce in my head, not complaining about the image just not sure how that happened).

I liked Batman Inc. because it was a step in a different direction. You can only tell the same story with so many different variations before the characters start to suffer for it.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[tinygaylaura]

I agree I don't want Batman doing things like that to every criminal he meets

Which is what I mean when I say that the issue is that DC wants all of Batman's villains to be just so damn horrible

Even the Riddler is a mass murdering terrorist with a body count in the thousands now

The problem is that the norm has become that every villain he fights has a body count in the triple digits

The problem is how the writers have made it so that Batman's code against killing or doing anything else permanent to stop a villain doesn't look noble it looks like he's ignoring reality

When Joker was some guy who gave fish smiles and maybe could get away with one or two murders before Batman stopped him you could think "Okay yeah he's a bad person but its right that Batman doesn't play judge, jury and executioner here"

When writers have the Joker bragging about murdering babies for fun and slaughtering hundreds of people you can't help but think "Batman not just killing this freak or doing something to end him permanently is why there's a ton of new orphans in this city"

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[lego_joker]

Even worse than that, it makes Gotham's pre-Batman status quo look actively better than the post-Batman one. A city run by mobsters looks like Eden compared to one where 9/11 basically happens every week.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[lego_joker]

Boat's long sailed on that one, at least when it comes to the nameless henchmen.

Now if only we can convince him it's equally worth doing to the big names...

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[cyberghostface]

Not to the degree the other person is suggesting, I.e. blinding or Clockwork Orange stuff.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[tinygaylaura]

See I'm fine with Joker Immunity but the obvious answer is just stop having the villains do SUCH horrible things

Batman wanting to give his villains the chance to reform when their crimes are stealing hats and menacing the police with a deadly brain teaser is understandable

Batman putting his villains in Springfield Minimum Security Prison when their crimes are setting children on fire just to watch them burn when his best friend has a magic ray gun that puts people in a parallel dimension they could never escape just makes him look like a moron

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[blue_bolt]

Why doesn't Bruce use the Phantom Zone more? I mean sure there's breakouts sometimes but way way way less than Arkham. And as far as rehab goes we know that Bruce has villains like Ra's and Joker who have a high enough kill count and a long enough history of violence that they certainly belong in the Zone.

Also you reminded me of something, my favourite versions of the Riddler and Bane.

Remember Private Investigator Nygma? He was fun!

And Suicide Squad Bane was so surprisingly wholesome at times.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[tinygaylaura]

You mean Secret Six I think and yes I agree!

And yeah I liked that take on Riddler

I like the animated series version best. He was smart and deadly enough to be a real threat but he didn't just kill for fun or get off on hurting people he was a criminal mastermind who had goals and a unique way of doing them. He was like a Bond villain with a supervillain gimmick and he had style and panache

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[blue_bolt]

Oops, yeah I meant Secret Six.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[stubbleupdate]

Secret Six Bane was very moral

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[tinygaylaura]

I promise in context he's turning that mans balls to pate for moral reasons

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[shakalooloo]

Lego Batman showed us all why it would be a good idea to keep the Phantom Zone Projector away from Batman..!

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[iamrman]

I loved Secret Six Bane. Much more than Mr. Something-something-bRoKe-ThE-BaT. And that's coming from somebody that likes Knightfall.

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[mrwalker]

I also wonder why not only Bruce, but the other heroes don't consider other options besides the revolving doors at Arkham. Phantom Zone? Imprisoned in the Central Power Battery? Prison colony on a lifeless asteroid?

Hell, in Smallville Season 11, the fledgling Justice League has a damn prison on the Moon! Ironically, the "Joker" of that universe ends up there not because he's a walking WMD, but because he knows Batman's identity...

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[jlbarnett]

You know supposedly they had Batman drive out the organized crime in Gotham, I'd like them to do something with criminals not trying to fill the void but to use. Like as a way station for various traficking related crimes. You're moving a shipment of drugs or kidnapped people, go through Gotham. You're only in town a few days, not enough time for anyone to notice you, just don't set up shop there. But Batman notices immediately

Re: No Kill Rule Loopholes

[deh_tommy]

Cripes, girl...

[beeyo]

Did I miss something? The "Person" in the suit isn't exactly evil, right? He's the guy that got hurt saving people during the Arkham Attack?

Seriously, I'm asking. Saint can go fuck himself but I don't remember if Peacekeeper 01 is an irredeemable POS.

[tinygaylaura]

Very first thing we saw him do before signing up to become Robonazi here was complain about Gordon's anti corruption policies making it so he couldn't become a real cop and so thats why he wound up as a rent-a-redshirt at Arkham

And the record of his time working at Arkham was conveniently "lost" and its been said in the solicits Harley knows something damaging about him. I'm betting he's another Lyle Bolton

[lucean]

That 'Good. I can see you too.' made me pop so hard. Tynion is truly great at writing badass Batman.

[shakalooloo]

Why is the US flag at a right angle on Peacekeeper's chest? Is that a thing? It's not like there isn't room for it to be the right way 'round.

[blue_bolt]

I'm honestly going to say "because I'm edgy ha!" is probably the answer here.
I don't want to sound cynical, but I feel like this chapter in Batman's long story is going to be one of missed opportunities to bring fresh changes.

[blue_bolt]

I cannot find it in me to disagree with a word you wrote. The only answer is to create change, because the reality we live in is the one you've described and I believe in my heart that we can do better.

[deh_tommy]

We alsolutely can do better, but I’m not sure I’m entirely comfortable with tinygaylaura’s more extreme rhetorics or if that’s the way to go.

[tinygaylaura]

I'm sorry if I come off as too angry or rude sometimes but the only point I was trying to make is "Fascism is bad" and that people are too easily tricked into accepting fascism when it's wrapped in a little bow of "This is for your own good honest".

And before anyone asks no I am not talking about vaccinations or wearing a mask I am not one of those anti-vaxx lunatics or "Anti-maskers" who think getting covid-19 means FREEDOM. I am talking about both what Simon Saint is doing here in this story and its creepy parallels with real world fascism. The destruction of city hall here for instance is clearly meant to parallel the burning of the Reichstag, a false flag operation the Nazis in Germany did to seize absolute power and get rid of any political opposition turning the country into a full on dictatorship after pushing it towards that with their fascist actions and rhetoric

I'd like to think something we can all agree on is that fascism is a bad thing and that in this story a maniac turning assholes into cyborg monsters to take away peoples freedoms is something that Batman really needs to stop?

[caivu]

This is total spitballing, but I think it works:

On US military BDUs, there's a flag patch on each shoulder positioned so that they resemble what a flag on a pole would do if one were charging forward; that is, blown backward. Following the same visual logic, a flag draped straight down is hanging, so in a more passive and, for the purposes of this metaphor, peaceful position. That works as a symbol for the Peacekeeper units, as least ostensibly.

[shakalooloo]

I can buy that. Thanks!

[silverhammerman]

It's been way too long since Batman fought cops, and even though this is distanced by the fact that Peacemaker isn't "really" a cop and is all decked out in supervillain gear, it's nice to see. The great tragedy of Frank Miller's legacy with regards to Batman is that we didn't get three decades of Batman kicking cops through brick walls after Year One.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

I wasn't expecting Fulgore to show up in Gotham, but if this paved the way to a Killer Instinct/DC crossover, I'm here for it.

[leahandillyana]

I am pretty disappointed in the run so far. Too many new characters who read like a distorted mirror image of existing ones, too little something actually new being done with the characters.