Scans_Daily

'He’s Don Draper if Don had wings and a good heart. How do you not want to write that story?'

... by realizing, "wait, those traits are both paradoxical and nonsensical in combination. Anyone who had a truly good heart would be tearing down the corrupt monument to greed and vanity that this character is supposed to be building."

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mazway_75

The producers of Mad Men openly acknowledge their amazement fans kept misunderstanding the characters. Like how "Don is so cool, so collected, great ladies man" and ignoring what a self-centered self-destructive mess the man was.

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What a shock; these are the same people who eat up portrayals of Steve Jobs and Ray Kroc as aspirational figures. Who enjoy alternate versions of Scarface where Montana's comeuppance is avoided.

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alliterator

I mean, Tini is saying Angel is like Don if Don actually had a good heart, meaning that she knows he doesn't. That doesn't seem as if she's misunderstanding the character, only commenting on how Angel differs from him.

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jlbarnett

so you think to be a truly good person someone must have the same morality as you?

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Since I don't have any morality, obviously not.

I just have standards.

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alliterator

What do you think X-Corp are building that is a "monument to greed and vanity"?

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What do you think X-Corp are building that is a "monument to greed and vanity"?

A corporation.

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alliterator

So you don't believe in non-profits or charitable corporations?

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Let me rephrase. Whether or not such things exist, or deserve admiration, I don't believe that X-Corp is an example of one.

Edited Date: 2021-07-18 01:39 am (UTC)

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alliterator

I never said they were.

You seem to be under the impression that X-Corp is supposed to be good, rather than a necessary evil. They aren't a "monument to greed," but rather a means to an end. Their entire structure is based not on exploiting mutants -- although, as we see with Madrox, they are fine with exploiting his dupes -- but with disrupting other corporations and replacing them.

Whether or not that's a good thing is, well, the question.

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Whether or not that's a good thing is, well, the question.

And I don't accept the thesis that such an organization can replace other such organizations without becoming every bit as rapacious and vile as they were. Hence, "monument to greed and vanity".

Edited Date: 2021-07-18 02:00 am (UTC)

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alliterator

Great. Good for you. This isn't the book for you then.

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I mean my answer to that question would be yes because if there's going to be a morally ambiguous ridiculously powerful corporation making a shit ton of money I'd rather it be Monet St Croix getting rich off of it than Elon Musk

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sabertoothlotus

What is up with Madrox here? He doesn't read like any version of Jamie that I've known. He's always been a bit of a rebel, not a corporate douche with his nose in the air.
I'm glad SOMEBODY remembered Layla. As she's (sort of) a precog, I can see why they don't want her on Krakoa.
Headcanon is that Jamie Prime is still on that farm with her and every time we've seen him since the end of that X-Factor run has been a dupe.

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alliterator

She isn't a precog -- she had all her future self's memories downloaded into her, but that ran out a while ago.

Her real mutant power is resurrecting people without their souls. Which is why she isn't really appearing on Krakoa, because that would raise way too many questions.

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mazway_75

Every time I read Madrox in X-Men now, I keep imagining a certain writer prepping a story where Jamie comes back from years in space or another dimension and "wait, you thought that idiot dupe was ME?! What the hell, guys?"

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That first page actually gets at something I've been wondering for a while, do the Madrox dupes actually, y'know, like being Krakoa's grunts? I mean I know it's a practical application of his powers and a good way to show something X-Men-y in the background without the artists knocking themselves out drawing a million distinct b/g characters, but they are generally supposed to be sentient. Can't say I'd love being called into existence only to be told I'm going to live for eight hours and spend that entire time serving drinks. The dupe who complained is right and also the dupes should unionize.

Interesting that Angel addresses Andreas as Swordsman, since it implies that his past with the Thunderbolts and sorta-redemption isn't entirely forgotten, despite his being most treated as a loathsome Nazi by the other characters here.

Also, never watched Mad Men, but isn't it kinda the point of Don Draper that he doesn't really have a good heart? He's a train wreck.

Edited Date: 2021-07-18 12:11 am (UTC)

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arilou_skiff

I mean they do say "He's like Don Draper if he had a good heart" so it's not like if they missed that about Don Draper.

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Yeah, I was being overly snippy and it's a silly thing to criticize.

Edited Date: 2021-07-18 12:21 am (UTC)

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miramira

I mean, I do think "he shares only the most surface-level traits with this more popular character who's actually defined by being such a mess in spite of the cool stuff" is not as a) descriptive or b) compelling an argument as she seems to think it is. If anyone's coming off as Draperesque here, it's Mastermind.

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The dupes forming a union would be hilarious

I'd love if we got this one Madrox Dupe basically being the Karl Marx Dupe and trying to get them to rebel

"Don't you see? The workers must seize the means of production! We need to gather together and form an autonomous collective"

"You can't do that! Your part of Krakoa"

"Look pal true executive power can only come from a mandate for the masses, not some farcical mutant ceremony!"

"LOOK JUST SHUT UP"

"oh now we see the violence inherent in the system"

"SHUT UP I SAID"

"Come see the violence inherent in the system!"

"BLOODY PEASANT!"

As for Andreas

In my opinion?

There is no "Redemption" for Nazis. There is nothing they can do, no action they can take, no decision they can make which will ever change what kind of garbage they are or that will be enough to atone for their actions.

To paraphrase the great Vic Sage: "A is always A.

And a nazi is always a nazi"

Don Draper was an asshole but I think what Howard was saying is that Angel here is like Don Draper if he WASN'T a complete asshole not that Draper was actually good deep down all along on the show. She's saying that Angel can come off as a dick who is like Don Draper but the difference is he's a jerk with a heart of gold and Draper was a jerk with a heart jerk

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deh_tommy

I’m of the opinion that people can change for the better and can continue to do good even if they can’t necessarily atone for what they’ve done (or at least feel like they can’t atone), but that’s a whole other debate. I doubt Swordsman here is actually atoning for or repentant over anything, but still.

That’s still hilarious to me how torturing the Strucker twins is apparently good sport since they’re nazis yet they seriously entertain Selene just moments prior.

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Lol well I would expect no less from you on the topic of literal Nazis, and I'm generally agreed with regards to IRL. That said, with fictional characters I think it's interesting which ones are and are not allowed to be laundered of those associations. The Struckers were raised and indoctrinated believing a racist ideology and Andreas had an arc in Thunderbolts fleshing him out to be more complex, yet he still gets called Nazi by the other characters while Sinister doesn't, despite having been a Nazi scientist in canon (I am aware you also have an uncharitable opinion of Sinister, but I'm speaking in terms of how the characters treat him).

I think it's an interesting example of the both what writers choose to selectively ignore and the resultant "protagonist-centred morality" of superhero comics. The Struckers are minor characters so the main characters don't like them and call them Nazis. Sinister is a major character so everyone tolerates him and even Magneto doesn't bring up the Nazi stuff.

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laughing_tree

Well, if Madrox is okay with it, then the dupes would be too since they all have the same personality and memories. Wouldn't that be how it works?

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scorntx

Not exactly.
The dupes can be unpredictable sometimes. They take aspects of Jamie's personality, but that aspect can vary. So they might be okay with it, or might think being asked to be a waiter is boring and wander off. Or just throw the tray at someone, then hit on Monet.
The No-Prize explanation is Jamie did some screening beforehand to make sure that wouldn't happen.

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See that's what I wonder about, because while Madrox Prime's okay with it in that he'll get his dupes to do, Prime is still swanning around the Hellfire Gala with the rest of the mutant nouveau riche until he has to do X-Corp stuff. If Prime wants to actually take part in the Gala, shouldn't every dupe in the kitchen want to do the same?

I mean, I guess I'm arguing that every time Madrox creates a dupe it should be like that scene where Sinister and his new clone argue over who has to go to Otherworld, which is probably excessive. If Madrox Prime were a true comrade he'd be right there working in that kitchen with them, and to do otherwise is a double standard, I think the dupes should form a union and "abolish" such hierarchal persons as Madrox Prime.

Edited Date: 2021-07-18 09:21 pm (UTC)

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The Madrox Peoples Front want this

As does the Peoples Front of Madrox

"I mean

What has Krakoa ever done for us?"

"Civil rights?"

"Well okay yes, mutant civil rights were a fuckin shambles before this sure but other than that what has Krakoa done for us?"

"Immortality?"

"Well obviously immortality that goes without saying doesn't it?

But other than civil rights and immortality what has Krakoa ever done for us?"

"Freedom from capitalism?"

"Okay yes we're free from capitalism now so sure but other than immortality, freedom from capitalism and civil rights what has Krakoa done for us?"

"I mean the gates let us travel all over the globe.."

"And space! Don't forget space"

"Can literally grow anything we need...like food, for free"

"Including housing! God I had the WORST time finding a house before this"

"And the law against killing humans has made a lot of the assholes in the mutant community behave themselves....it's a lot safer than it used to be"

"Don't forget the medicines! I have human friends...the Krakoan medicines have helped them out a lot"

"Okay okay FINE

But apart from civil rights, immortality, freedom from capitalism, global travel, space travel, free food, decent housing, public order and medicine...WHAT...has Krakoa ever done for us?"

"Brought peace?"

"FUCK OFF"

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super_fly

Looks like Seline went with a Bayonetta cosplay for the evening

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And looks damn good in it too

The ladies of the Hellfire Club are very good at finding outfits that are so hot I actually like seeing them in those clothes even more than I'd enjoy seeing them out of them

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