Spider-Man’s Tangled Web #13

[cyberghostface]

Disclaimer: This issue was double-sized.

As a bit of context, this issue was written by Ron Zimmerman, a television writer who was at time time known for his appearances on Howard Stern. Marvel (or more specifically Bill Jemas) tried to make him the next big thing to not much success. His most famous work for Marvel was the 'Rawhide Kid' MAX miniseries.

This issue in particular introduced Zimmerman's take on Alyosha Kravinoff, Kraven's son. Alyosha first appeared as a feral psychopath and then as a generic Kraven clone (not to be confused with the actual Kraven clone who is now the new Kraven). Zimmerman reinvented him as a suave Hollywood producer ladies' man nicknamed 'Al'. 'Al' later appeared in a miniseries called 'Get Kraven' which was basically a series of in-jokes based off Zimmerman's experiences in Hollywood with 'Al' functioning as a self-insert/wish fulfillment for Zimmerman. The series was so poorly received Marvel ended it an issue early. I ended up cutting out most of his scenes from this issue but if you're wondering who the guy with long hair is now you know.

Comments

[zachbeacon]

I hated Zimmerman's writing long before he was in comics (anyone remember Action?) and by this point in the 2000s we were all sick of Norman but even I have to admit that last bit is terrifying.

I never understood Norman as a team leader since he's known for betraying his partners in and out of costume but stories like this make you understand why even a lot of other villains are afraid of him.

[beyondthefringe]

Oh god, Ron Zimmerman. I remember his brief career as a comics writer and how he flamed out, and what a relief that was. He just wasn't a good writer.

He also gave us the Vulture with hair plugs for no good reason.

[mazway_75]

That Rawhide Kid series was painful to read in 2002 and even worse today.

Blame it on Jemas wanting to expand Marvel to let non-comic writers in and cause these messes (see the near-disaster of firing Waid from FF to turn into "wacky suburban sitcom" and it took a fan revolt to hire Waid back).

[zachbeacon]

I didn't read Rawhide Kid (because I'd read enough of his other comics by then to know better) but from a distance it seemed like they were doing a series of offensive gay stereotypes while calling everyone who criticized them a homophobe. Admittedly a lot of them were. Considering the current state of comic discourse, they might have just been ahead of their time.

Also, I know this community has a complicated relationship with PAD but, as a Genis fan, the whole "U-Decide" stunt (which also involved Zimmerman) left a really bad taste in my mouth.

[cyberghostface]

From what I’ve seen here a lot of the Rawhide Kid stuff was actually harmless with him being flamboyant but not offensively so and not even referring to his sexuality beyond veiled references. The covers with the phallic gun imagery was as explicit as it got.

[tcampbell1000]

Yeah, I had no issue with Rawhide Kid... so he leans into certain stereotypes? That actually means he's pretty gutsy in the Old West, and the way he makes his sexuality both deniable and impossible to ignore is a pretty great challenge to the mores of the time.

[tripodeca113]

"And then I made him think he was a clone and dicked him around for ages! Man being EVIL is great!"

[coldfury]

"Oh, and let's not forget those kids of his girlfriend that I had with her that I raised to adulthood super fast!"

[numeronone]

In a sense, Norman Osborn is the (shudder) Peter Griffin of supervillains.

"You think THAT'S bad! Remember the time I bought out the Daily Bugle as my personal propaganda rag so I could finance a quixotic quest for some 'artifact of power' that just made me even CRAAAZIER than before, and I ended up giving away - oops! - that I'd kept May Parker in a box somewhere for years after faking her death?!"

[coldfury]

Oh man, I forgot about the May Parker fake death thing. Comics.

[tinygaylaura]

"I think I also faked my sons death too?

It's hard to keep track of all the stuff Marvel says I was secretly behind"

[zachbeacon]

According to Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man, he was responsible for a good chunk of the Silver Age villains even before he became the Green Goblin.

But I'd rather ignore Millar's contributions to Spider-lore. He had, like, one good idea (Mac as Venom) that never got properly explored and the rest was mostly junk.

[zachbeacon]

That's the thing that always annoyed me about Norman. He didn't actually do that. Miles Warren did. Most of his accomplishments involve taking credit for things other villains did. Even all his Goblin stuff was created by someone else.

I guess that's what happens when you have a supervillain CEO.

[numeronone]

When you really enjoyed Batman: the Animated Series but suddenly remember you got hired by the other publishing company.

[tinygaylaura]

I'm glad it's not just me who had the thought "Wait is this just Almost Got 'Im but without a plot twist where it turns out Whirlwind is actually Spider-Man in disguise"

[arilou_skiff]

Theres probably a seed of a good idea in making Kravens son a Hollywood type, but the execution was just bad.

I do remember liking this bit, yeah, it was derivative of the BTAS episode, but the difference between the regular Joe villains and the psycho-Norman actually workedin this case.

[zachbeacon]

Yeah, I liked the IDEA of a Kraven that acted like a spoiled aristocrat but I hated that they overwrote an existing character to do it.

[tinygaylaura]

Norman gave them the abridged history of his interactions with Spider-Man there

But really now

I am disgusted by the fact

That he didn't say "It was a snap!" in that last panel