The good work

[laughing_tree]

Inferno #1...

Comments

[zachbeacon]

Yeah, you know you're in the wrong when you've got me siding with Mystique.

[chalicother]

I think...I need more context...

I mean I am siding with Mystique (despite not being a fan of the character), but the scene comes off uncomfortable when it's just Moria giving a cure to people who want it and getting burned to life for it.

Destiny and Mystique have a good point though...

[tinygaylaura]

This scene is one more reason why Mystique and Destiny are two of my favorite characters in the Marvel universe as well as being one of my favorite couples

They have the correct idea about how to deal with anyone who would attempt to "Cure" a minority

I especially love Destiny and Mystique's "Fuck your feelings" reaction to Moira getting pissy that her little fascist buddies are dead here

[fra080389]

Well, don't be too disappointed when all this mutant thing inevitably will be burn away like Moira, because you could feel in that way, but I seriously doubt the intent of the authors here is what you think. They're clearly villainous. And fascists themself if we wanna use real world words.

[janegray]

Strongly disagree that being a mutant can be automatically used to equate being a minority. There is nothing wrong with being poc or gay, so in those cases "convert therapies" are really just based on abuse-induced self-hatred. But mutant powers can be severely harmful. In some cases, a cure for mutant powers would absolutely be helpful.

Rogue is the go-to example. Wanting to be able to touch other human beings without killing them is absolutely valid, and if she chose to give up her powers in exchange for the comfort of human touch that would be totally understandable.

But I'm also thinking of the child that Logan was forced to euthanise because the poor kid developed the power to involuntarily melt any person and animal within a radius of many miles. That poor little boy accidentally murdered his family and his entire town just by existing and taking a walk, and there was no stopping it, the power was automatic and ongoing and uncontainable. Logan was only able to get close to him because his healing factor could barely keep up with the melting flesh.

There are so many ways mutant powers can go wrong. What if you are a telepath, but can't control it? The thoughts of countless people forcing their way into your head would drive you insane. Intrusive thoughts are bad enough, that could be so much worse.

What if Professor X had not been able to find any ruby quartz? Scott would have had to keep a blindfold on for the rest of his life. What if Kitty's powers had lacked the safety net that prevents her from sinking downwards? Ending up at the center of the planet and starving to death there doesn't sound fun.

When it comes down to it, the only reason that they shouldn't develop a cure for mutant powers is that said cure would be most certainly seized and weaponised by the bad guys.

But, in and of itself, the question of "what if you lose the mutant lottery and end up with genuinely fucking awful powers that ruin your life" isn't a bad one to address.

[cainofdreaming]

Mother? Uh, that's a weird change into the Brotherhood dynamic.

[tinygaylaura]

I'd love if Marvel made it canon that Mystique and Destiny are Pyro's mothers. Re-using the original and superior idea for Nightcrawler's backstory before Marvel decided that instead "The Draco" would be a better idea for some baffling reason

[zachbeacon]

I don't know much about Pyro's personal life. Maybe Rogue wasn't the only stray they took in?

[thezmage]

Alternate reality

[iamrman]

Remember the time before Hickman ruined Moira as a character? I miss that.

[tinygaylaura]

I rather like the reveal about Moira myself but I can see why some fans of the character hate it especially as it's clear that she's far more villainous or at least far more morally grey than she lets on. This issue all but confirms the real reason for the "No precogs" rule is just petty spite on her part and she wants to get back at Destiny

[scorntx]

It is odd that one of the things Hickman apparently though X-Men needed in order to be cool and relevant again is Moira being... this.

[phantomfo]

I still have a hard time reconciling the whole, "Moira was a mutant all asking, and Charles and Magneto were secretly working together all along," with the previous 60ish years of stories. Things like Onslaught, Erik's removal of Wolverine's adamantium, and the time Magneto was reverted to a baby who was then raised by Moira. It just feels like they wanted to be able to take a shortcut to get to this new status quo without it needing to make sense.

[alliterator]

Moira has been dead for twenty years. Bringing the character back and making her the center of the entire franchise is the best thing that's ever happened to her.

[silverhammerman]

Kind of funny to have the long overdue conclusion to *literally any of Hickman's plot threads* open with a recapitulation of a scene we already saw in HoX/PoX. Admittedly, there are differences so it's not exactly lazy, but it's still kind of funny.

I do really like this introduction of some doubt to Moira's commitment to the whole mutant cause and that her "no precogs" rule is entirely spite-based. Perhaps it would hit a little harder if Moira had been doing anything for the past two years of stories rather than sitting in a basement and drinking tea, but still, nice to see her finally get something.

[scorntx]

Hadn't people pretty much taken it as read that the "no precogs" rule was spite anyhow?

The issue tries to go with the justification that Moira's been doing nothing because Charles and Erik have somehow forbidden her to do anything, which falls a little flat on its face (at least from over here), because... it doesn't make much sense. Short of Charles using his telepathy on her, how's he supposed to stop her? The honour system?
And wasn't the whole point Moira was being a shadowy manipulator for them anyhow, what with being the one with the dark future knowledge and setting down the rules and whatnot?

[lordultimus]

Okay, see, my problem is that the idea of a "cure" is binary. Like, what about something that can suppress the mutant gene so you're not activated 24/7, but you can still activate your powers whenever you want?

[tinygaylaura]

If you mean a way to suppress the negative side of mutant powers, that exists

Rogue has that which is how she's able to touch Gambit as much as she wants these days. Which is a lot because those two are some horny fuckers

And mutants like Selene and Emplate who previously had a mutation that meant they had a choice of "You either kill or you die" in how their bodies work now don't have to do that because mutantkind worked out a True Blood style solution to their mutant vampire problem

[onsokumaru]

Mutant cure is not a solution for people who suffer from their mutant powers.
Mutation swap IS the solution.
Proud mutants in favor of self acceptance like Mystique or Wolverine or Mirage will trade their mutant power and physical appearance with those who feel miserable, like Beak, Cosmar or Wither and everybody will be happy.
I'd also nominate Magneto and Toad to have the honnors of the first mutant swap in history.

[starwolf_oakley]

Magneto and Toad already swapped, sort of.

It was in the UNIVERSE X mini series. Magneto gets the world he wants, but now Toad has his powers and he has Toad's.

[numeronone]

This reads holistically as Hickman reading through the first version of this conversation and wanting to make edits.

Which...to my writing taste...like, hon, don't...

[mindsweeper]

There are substantive changes here, though, that change the scene pretty dramatically. Moira no longer says they're not going to force it one anyone. That line softened her and her team's stance. And all the "doubt" and winning side makes it seem like she's probably not on Mutants' side in this life.

Moira deciding that Mutants are wrong, a disease and monsters, so they need to go and to do so in a world without Destiny to stop her.

[starwolf_oakley]

Destiny is rarely this hard-core. But she was going to kill Robert Kelly with a crossbow, so it isn't unheard of.

[tinygaylaura]

I love her "Who does?" line here

[shadowpsykie]

Didn't we already see all this?

[icon_uk]

My reaction too, an odd choice of pages to post, given this is essentially a re-run of a HoX/PoX scene.

[donnblake]

I'd want to know more about how this 'cure' works before I make a judgement.

But like, offhand, I know people who have struggled for a long time with the way their genetics have shaped their body, both in terms of their personal feelings about their appearance and in the way that society reacts to them because of it (because that's always an easily separable binary, right?). Some of these people are seeking or have sought various levels of medical intervention. I would have a serious problem with anyone who suggested that really these people just needed therapy to accept their genetic identity.

None of them have ever described it to me (nor have I seen it so described in the broader culture) as "a cure" for being born with two X chromosomes, or suggested that they view themselves as a disease.

[tinygaylaura]

That's an entirely seperate thing entirely

[lordy_co]

So, after having read the full issue, I have two issues regarding how Hickman's conducting this whole affair.

First: we're shown that even after several attempts, the mutants have failed to throw the Orchis Forge into the sun, and I just don't see how that's realistic. Send Magneto+Exodus+Kid Omega+Jean, alongside an X-Force hit squad and there's now way that fortress would still be standing there. Throw in Vulcan and Proteus as well and it becomes a situation the mutants can't lose.

Second: look, I get that this isn't morally correct (more on that later), but, once X and Magneto realise that Mystique is going to be a problem, I just don't see why the can't just prevent her from being ressurected. Of course, they'd have to kick her out of the Council first, since its members get priority, but it's not unfeasable.

You'll notice that both issues share the same central theme, i.e. whether it'd be ethical for the Krakoan state to take lives it has no right to take. Bringing in more people than Magneto and the X-Force would require asking these people to break the law about killing humans, and preventing Mystique from being ressurected is obviously a violation of her personal rights.

And yet I just can't conceive of a reason why at least Magneto wouldn't push Xavier to do it.

It looks like one of those situations where Hickman needs the story to happen in a certain way, even if it doesn't feel very organic. YMMV of course.

[beyondthefringe]

For me, it's the bit about how the mutants keep attacking Orchis, who's learning from each attack and evolving and improving... while the mutants apparently don't learn a goddamned thing because they don't remember what happened.

WHY?
Why don't they have a dedicated Cerebro unit for backing up these assault squads on a minute by minute basis, to prevent memory loss of the event? Why don't they have portable black boxes set to transmit home? Why don't they have telepathic ride-alongs for real time communication and information processing? I mean, if I was going to commit real assets to something of this importance, I wouldn't leave anything to chance, and I wouldn't risk losing any valuable intelligence.

No, apparently it's "Wolverine attacks, dies." "Send in Wolverine..."

[scorntx]

"It's a disease, what we are. But I'm only trying to cure people who want it."

Just a thought:
Had Moira taken her cure herself? Was she planning on taking it?
And if she had, would she have gotten another life when she died, or would that be it?
(assuming, of course, the cure works permanently in the first place.

I mean, she's just said she considers Mutants a disease she's trying to cure, so wouldn't not using that cure on herself be a tad... hypocritical?

[lordy_co]

I think that using it on herself would prevent her from trying again, should the project fail.

[brushwoodthicket]

Destiny and Mystique weren't "wrong" in their outrage, but their choice to "burn her slowly" was a bit extreme. Moria learned her lesson about Mutants going forward, yes, but was also so traumatized that she went out of her way to clash with D&M (who never shy away from a good fight). Now the whole timeline is in jeopardy.