The Immortal Hulk #50 - "Of Hell and Of Death" [series finale]

[laughing_tree]

Originally it was going to be the Beast from Hydra, but I found out people had plans for that so I was like, "Okay, okay, we need a new cosmic Satan. Oh! There's One Above All. What about One Below?" -- Al Ewing

Comments

[numeronone]

One month on, I couldn't think of a better ending.

There's probably never going to be a better Hulk run, to me.

[blues32]

If they don't decide to retcon everything, this could be a landmark run for Hulk. It could change everything like how Swamp Thing became a story about a man turned into a plant creature to a story about the Green, the Red, and the Rot.

[numeronone]

They will, but like that Swamp Thing run it doesn't really matter. There was a beginning, middle and end and it all satisfied. And the Green and the Red were here before, and will last after...

[numeronone]

Note that, in some versions of the Cain and Abel story, the initial squabble which led to their appealing to God for judgement via sacrifice - and Cain murdering Abel out of dissatisfaction - was a disagreement over a woman.

(Though of course said woman was Cain's twin sister, with whom they were both in love, which, ew.)

[lordy_co]

(Though of course said woman was Cain's twin sister, with whom they were both in love, which, ew.)

IIRC, in older Jewish folklore, incest wasn't a taboo at the beginning of times because people weren't "close enough" for it to cause problems. One of Moses laws was soecifically against it though, because, by his time, relationships between relatives could already cause problems.

I'm not Jewish and not a folklorist so I could be wrong tho.

[imitorar]

It was Abel's twin sister, I believe. Cain was born with one, but Abel was born with two (a sign of righteousness in Midrash, being born with an extra twin sister), and they were arguing about who would marry the third sister.

It's more that, given that the only people on earth were Adam, Eve, and their progeny, there wasn't any choice. The need to propagate the species superseded the prohibition of incest. The same approach is given to explain who Jacob's sons married; they couldn't marry Canaanites, and it doesn't mention them going to Mesopotamia to find spouses as was done for Isaac and Jacob himself, so it must be that they each married unmentioned twin sisters. In that case, one of the defenses given is that only maternal sisters are forbidden to Noahides (whereas to Jews, half-siblings on either side are forbidden), so if the Tribes married twin sisters from one of Jacob's other wives, it would not technically have been forbidden.

In general, Jewish tradition sees incest as prohibited by a sort of "natural law" (the Seven Noahide Laws), revealed to Adam by G-d and applicable to all humans even before the Torah was given to Moses. In fact, one of the sins of the Generation of the Flood is said to have been all types of sexual immorality, including incest.

[lordy_co]

Oooh thank you for the explanation! I'l keep it in mind and not spread more wrong stories.

[shadur]

Kind of hard to have it otherwise when all the human beings that exist are first-degree releated to you.

[numeronone]

You'd think that? Except immediately after being exiled for murdering Abel, Cain goes into the Land of Nod and founds the city of Enoch, named for his son. Who lived there, if not unrelated people?

[imitorar]

He built it for future generations. It doesn't mean anyone was living there at the moment. That's how I've always read it, anyway.

[velacron]

Even if you want to interpret the story in a literal, creationist way, there are still possibilities:
for example, it could be reasonably assumed that Cain's wanderings took him centuries before he settled down (after all, the first humans are said to have had enormously long lives* in Genesis) so that at this point, the woman he marries in Nod is his niece, grand-niece or great-great-grandniece

To make a LoTR comparison (after all, Tolkien tried to give his creation myths a biblical feel):
Aragorn and the long-lived elf Arwen are technically related as well, her father Elrond being his great-great-great...-uncle (64 generations removed, IIRC)

* Interesting tidbit: While the lifespans of the first humans are described as spanning centuries in Genesis 5, they are - with the exception of Methusalem - generally decreasing as well. So you could chalk THAT up to incest: The first generations were made by God with great longevity, so that by the time they populated enough of the earth and an incest taboo could be decreed, they would have arrived at a normal lifespan - at least that's one possible theory

[blues32]

Okay...so...the whole reason there's a green door is because a Sterns closed a green door in the face of a Banner. Kinda makes it a lot less...mystic sounding.

Speaking of Sterns...where's Philip Sterns? Shouldn't he have been brought back like the other gamma beings? Or did the Leader turn his door red?

Did they ever explain where Professor Hulk went? I assume Green Scar is dead since the Leader possessed him and used him in creating that abomination, but Professor Hulk was never seen again. He was mentioned like...twice.

I'm interested in seeing where this goes. What sort of Hulk does Banner become now that Joe and the Kid are closer to being brothers rather than enemies vying for control? How long will Banner be at peace with himself? ...probably not long, let's be honest. And will his transformations be as gruesome from now on?

[numeronone]

At a guess: there's always the possibility of Prof. (or another "Smart Hulk" such as Doc Green) eventually becoming The Maestro. Since Banner voiced concern about this in Immortal #18, when Abomination showed up).

On a meta level: not only did Ewing get to play with Maestro in Contest of Champions (and that character's creator has decided to take the reins on him lately), but the entire point of Ewing's run (among others) was to get the system inside Banner cooperating together. Initially that was achieved by Devil nurture-bullying everyone into formation, and now it's come about by Big Guy and Joe going through hell together to save Banner.

Since Professor is essentially Banner, Joe and Big Guy smushed together, it might have been...counterintuitive.

[blues32]

I wouldn't worry too much about Professor Hulk becoming Mastero. When he gets angry, he turns into Banner with the brain of Savage Hulk.

[numeronone]

I think the green door of Robert Sterns is just an ironic coincidence - after all, the doors have been shown appearing prehistorically before this.

A little extra symbolism, though: in "Hulk In Hell" it was theorised that hell is not so much a place as it is a state: the knowledge that God exists, and that they turned their back on you.

Notice that a warm, golden streetlight is shining as Robert Banner is murdering his brother and abandoning his wife - and both times, he turns away from it.

[numeronone]

As to the gruesome transformations - my pet theory was that they came about as a result of each persona's level of discomfort eith what they were becoming. Banner very rarely wanted to contend with Devil - the self-love he always wanted, yet feared - and neither Big Guy or Joe have really been comfortable giving up control to each other.

The 'swelling up big' transformation is because Banner is at least resigned to becoming Big Guy or Joe at this point. And remarkably, in 50 long story-packed issues, Ewing has never once shown Banner changing into either on-panel. (Unless you count "Sunshine Joe".)

[numeronone]

My personal interpretation of *that* moment, when compared to the parallel scene at the end of Hulk In Hell - "I'll always protect you. Because I love you, you stupid kid":

Big Guy - like most of the Hulks - is not connected to Banner's intelligence. This isn't him reasoning, it's him going by instinct (the way Devil plays hunches).

But one of the little stories in the background of this story is that Sterns is also a Hulk. He's a blood relation (apparently), he can play the part of Green Scar well enough to fool most of the others in the system, and - ultimately - he, too is hurting, and he, too smashes things when he hurts. The difference being that his "smashing" is closer to a Rube Goldberg machine than a wrecking ball.

And in that tragic way, he relies on the other Hulks to undo that damage, the way only they know how. ("Sterns vs. Stretcho? That ain't no contest.") It's not a healthy cycle - what hero and villain relationship is? - but it's reliable.

And it all ties into the tragedy of the Sterns bros. One of them wqs so unable to love himself that he murdered his own brother rather than think about it - and centuries later, his distant descendant, having learned somewhat to love his selves, is strong enough to reach out to the descendant of that murdered brother.

[nyadnar17]

And the landing is stuck.

Man...I got nothing to add or say really. Just that as a religious person is always makes me happy when the big questions of theology are addressed head on. I don't have to like or agree with the answer, I just need to see the authors didn't take an easy way out.

[mazway_75]

Amazing run, almost a shame someone has to follow it with something weaker but still great turn up there with any of PAD's best work.

[scorntx]

So much to unpack in a single issue.
A good run. Not the ending I was expecting.
(Some of the stuff I was expecting happening over in Gamma Flight instead. Sneaky Ewing...)

The sudden flashback to 1800s Stern-Banners is a little... left field?
The inclusion of the proto-history Hulk was an interesting touch, along with the implications of it (what killed him, if it is indeed actually dead...)
It's not essential to the story, but an interesting detail.

The unanswered question of what has become of Professor Hulk is an intriguing one, but probably not one Cates will answer. Though you never know.


... still miss Devil Hulk, though.

[tcampbell1000]

Excellent, A+ run...solid B+ issue that only suffers a bit by comparison. The confrontation with the One Below All (and the idea that even it is a Hulk, in a way) were done as well as anyone could reasonably expect. Centuries of philosophy have tried to resolve the questions the Hulks ask here: Ewing isn't going to have answers that satisfy everyone, but he's smart enough to know it.

I'm not super into the idea that Sterns and Banner share a common ancestry that's also tied to gamma. That all feels a little "Skywalker saga" to me...and yes, it seemed pretty left-field, certainly compared to how well-composed the rest of the series was. Sterns and Banner are linked because of their common experiences with gamma warping their bodies and minds, and that's all that's needed to give Hulk's mercy meaning...he doesn't also need to be some lost fifth cousin of Sterns's.

So I guess the "Bruce Banner is not a good person" bit from Ewing's interviews was a bit of wordplay, in that Bruce Banner may be multiple (basically) good people. And I'm like...okay, I'll allow it. I think that last "What do you think?" could've been set up to be a bit stronger. Like, maybe with Samson or someone making the point that asking the question is sometimes more important than feeling secure about an answer.

But these nitpicks feel trivial in the face of the larger accomplishments here, like dwelling on the parts of Watchmen that were cribbed from The Outer Limits. It's been quite some time since any writer has achieved anything on this scale with any 20th-century-created superhero: the run may be in the top 10 of superhero works overall. Ewing deserves to feel satisfied, and everyone else should be taking notes.

[silverhammerman]

An incredible achievement and a fitting finale. I'm desperate for the final TPB to drop in December so I can get the full picture.

Still, now that it's wrapped it's hard not to be a little saddened that Joe Bennett's right wing politics have already tarnished this book's legacy. After years of being treated as a journeyman by Marvel, Ewing finally got the chance to tell a high profile, bold, challenging story with a high profile character, for once without being derailed by approximately one million crossovers and events, and yet his chief artistic collaborator (and I do think that Bennett's contributions to the book are considerable and inseparable from the series) outed himself as a reactionary troll. Marvel's already cut ties with Bennett, and I doubt that Ewing is going to get another shot at a project of this scale (he might not even want one, if he can make creator owned stuff like We Only Find Them When They're Dead work).

[scorntx]

That seems a little pessimistic.
Ewing got to write most of Marvel's big anniversary one-shot, and last year's Big Important Event (even if 2020 buggered it up).
Don't think they'd send him back down to the minor leagues and tie-ins after that.
(I mean, he's just started on Venom, which has got Hitch, who's generally considered a Big Name Artist in the business.
How long he stays there looks like a toss-up, but you don't generally put a writer on a title with a Big Name because you're downplaying them.)

[silverhammerman]

It is, I'm into doom and gloom.

Ewing's not doing Venom fulltime though; after Venom #1 his name disappears from the credits, so while he and Ram V might be trading off arcs, assuming that Ewing wasn't just onboarding the new guy, Venom isn't solely his show.

It's not so much that I think Ewing is gonna end up back in the minor leagues because he worked with Bennett, I'm sure Marvel will be happy to have him stick around and continue spinning their crossovers into something less execrable. It's more that Immortal Hulk is the kind of huge, character redefining and idiosyncratic book which doesn't come along all that often, and who knows if Ewing will write that kind of book again.

[numeronone]

The letters page to Venom #1 pretty much explicitly says that Ewing is handling the cosmic adventures of Eddie while Ram V handles the street-level saga of Dylan. So it might be the first arc is Dylan-heavy and Eddie comes back out to play later.

[silverhammerman]

Well that's a relief, and I'm glad to see Ewing sticking around on Venom (not that I don't like Ram V, I'm just an Ewing fan).

Can't help feeling like Ram V kind of got the short end of the stick by being stuck writing Dylan Brock, but I'm sure it was his own decision.

[scorntx]

Either that or they chose who wrote Eddie and who wrote Dylan by the time honoured practice of Brock-paper-scissors.

[numeronone]

I'd say that was a pun if I didn't know Eddie better...

[tcampbell1000]

I think it's a lot more likely that this book's legacy will do just fine and Joe Bennett will be forgotten. Apart from a couple coded references in the art that won't be reprinted and an inarguable gift for eye-popping body horror, there's not much in the final product that's identifiably tied to Bennett's personality.

Marvel's tendency to obscure creators in favor of their own IP is well-documented and rightly controversial, but every so often, two wrongs do make a right.

[beeyo]

Re-reading the entire run now and it's mindblowing how good every issue is even after I know what happens. How the threads are weaved, the little details I missed the first time around, even the symbolism in the art. This is the best comic series I've read in years

[starwolf_oakley]

There's this. Bruce Banner and Samuel Sterns (and Philip Sterns, aka Madman) are distant cousins.

There's "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows." If the "Three Brothers" story is true, Harry and Voldemort *might* be VERY distant cousins via James Potter and Merope Riddle (née Gaunt).

And there's Spectre. Hey, James Bond and Blofeld were foster brothers for a few years. And Blofeld uses his mother's maiden name as alias.

Fans have the most problems with the third one. And arguably James Bond is as much a fantasy as Harry Potter or the Incredible Hulk.

[thatnickguy]

I read the first half dozen or so volumes of this run, but fell off.

I'd love to get back into it, but since the artist came out as anti-Semitic and jumped full-on into the Comicsgate pool, I really don't want to support him in any way.

[zachbeacon]

Yeah, I'd enjoyed his work a lot on various 90s Spider-books and Jonah Hex so finding out who he really was was a disappointment.

At least with that other big name CG artist I thought his X-Men work was just okay and hated what he did with Green Lantern. Plus I used to be on some of the same comics forums as him in the New X-Men days and always thought he came off as a bit of a creep. No loss there.

[zachbeacon]

While I appreciate that they gave Bruce (well, Joe anyway) a father figure who isn't a total POS, the whole "Mike is the first person to care about me" thing is some Rick Jones and Jim Wilson erasure and I will not stand for it.