Final Crisis Rogues Revenge Part 2 of 3

[brerrabbit]

Comments

[lucean]

I don't think it registered to me when first reading this, but that shot at Gotham from Johns is just so telling.

[tinygaylaura]

"I grew up in a city ruled by organised crime that now has serial killers doing killing sprees every other week and where the police force are all corrupt, stupid or ineffectual and our only hope is maybe the costumed maniacs will be too busy killing someone else to bother with us"

"Oh yeah?

Well...

Well my dad was an ASSHOLE

fucking pwned you good, didn't I?"

[scorntx]

Perhaps Snart's gambit is to say something so mind-bogglingly ridiculous his opponent will become confused long enough for him to attack.

Because otherwise... *shrug*

[blues32]

His father wasn't just an asshole. He was a drunken abusive bastard who beat his kids. The only person Leonard had in his life that was good was his sister. They took care of each other because their father sure as hell wasn't going to. Struggling just to get some food in them...to hide money so their wreck of a father didn't blow it on bottles of cheap whiskey.

Honestly, the streets of Gotham are probably safer than the family life there. Most of the crooks don't senselessly murder their own henchmen. Most of them.

[mazway_75]

One of his best bits is Batman getting into Wally's face with the Rogues and he fires back. "My guys aren't like yours, Bruce. They don't leave behind clever clues, they don't want to get caught. They're smart, they're methodical and they're organized."

Plus "oh, by the way....never think you can touch me unless I let you."

[blues32]

Wally isn't wrong. The Rogues actually function well together. They never have plans to stab each other in the back. Most importantly, they don't leave a ton of bodies in their wake. So they're VERY different from Bruce's guys.

[mazway_75]

I loved the old Silver Age stuff of them in bars making wagers on who can pull off the best heist, best trap for the Flash or break out of jail first.

[stubbleupdate]

With a panel that is meant to look like Miller's Batman?

[silverhammerman]

There could be no more perfect encapsulation of Geoff Johns' entire output than a comic in which the Flash's Rogues have to put down their hip, young, more diverse successors by showing that no, actually, the Rogues are like, super dangerous and very serious business. It's even got a guy losing an arm!

[tinygaylaura]

"You won't be the last

BUT YOU ARE TODAY"

That line of dialogue sounds like something Michael Bay would write after suffering a head trauma

[agent8]

"It's even got a guy losing an arm!"
Not to mention a guy having his guts blown out by a tornado. That's a little higher on the physical trauma list I think.
Course they both ended up dead in the end.

[scorntx]

Geoff Johns demands you take the guy wearing a fuzzy hoodie seriously, damn it all!
... actually, come to think of it, he did pretty much the same thing (Captain Cold brutally putting down another villain in teh hardcore style) in Forever Evil a few years later.
At least he's consistent?


Though if we're looking for encapsulations of Johns' output, there's a lot of samples to chose from.
Especially from Infinite Crisis. That thing's like a gallery of Johnsian touches.

[blues32]

As he says in "Injustice 2", he's practical. He uses a gun that freezes everything around him. He needs the warmth.

As for Forever Evil...do you mean Johnny Quick? Because, for whatever reason, if he says, "Jingle bells, Batman smells" his gun fires?

[lordultimus]

See, Forever Evil happened because the New 52 gave Cold actual ice powers instead of an ice gun, and he couldn't allow that travesty to continue.

[scorntx]

Forever Evil happened for a reason? Egad!

[mazway_75]

But that's the point, they are that dangerous. Remember in Crisis on Infinite Earths, Cold and Weather Wizard help freeze an entire Earth over.

One of the early Wally as Flash issues has Cold openly saying "If we wanted to, we could rule this country." Barry and Wally always gave thanks these guys were happy just being low-level crooks, they could be absolute nightmares if they wanted to be.

That was the appeal of his run, making Wally more a "blue collar hero" type so having his bad guys be a union was a great opposite.

[silverhammerman]

I don't disagree, I think that sentiment is/was a major part of Johns' whole deal as a creator and a force at DC Comics. Johns was all about taking the comics of his childhood at more or less face value, then going ahead and showing us what was only ever implied before, ideally in grisly detail, with someone losing an arm. It just doesn't quite work for me.

[blues32]

The Rogues are a practical group. Better to do the "work" and rake in the cash than try for some over the top scheme at world domination or something.

That said, if Cold thinks he and the Rogues could take over the country, they've another thing coming. They have trouble with the Flash. Do they think they can handle every cape in the continental United States?

[blues32]

See, this is why I find the idea of Heatwave dying from asbestos in his costume to be absurd. THAT is not asbestos. I don't know what that costume is made of, but it's high quality stuff.

[mazway_75]

I think that's what inspired this post, pointing out that no, the Rogues don't get regular outfits, every one specially tailored for them.

[mazway_75]

DAMN I miss Johns writing the Rogues. How he made them so damn serious and such, it's great seeing them like this and a reminder how both Barry and Wally gave thanks they were content just robbing banks and such because this is a reminder how bad-ass they could be if they really cut loose.

[tinygaylaura]

I can't say that I do given that he also made the Rogues bigoted assholes

Which also sours all his attempts to make us like them because I despise that "Noble Bigot" bullshit that certain kinds of people seem so enamoured with

For me my favorite versions of the Rogues will always be the silver/bronze age Rogues or the current modern day versions that thankfully had all that crap about them being homophobic morons retconned away

[janegray]

Gonna have to go against the current here and say that I really love this. I love when """joke""" characters are shown to be competent (note that "competent" doesn't mean "horrifically evil." The Rogues here are shown to be good at their job, but they are looking out for a friend and going against more evil criminals. It's nothing like the bullshit trend of portraying lighthearted characters as rapists or pedophiles). I also love when villains are friends and work well together. I really enjoyed this story.

[blues32]

I don't really think any of the Rogue count as joke villains...outside of Trickster and Captain Boomerang. I mean, Weather Wizard...he controls the weather. Even when he thought he needed the wand, that's still incredibly powerful. Captain Cold has a gun that could kill groups of people in a single blast if he wanted. Same with Heatwave. Mirror Master can be in nearly any reflective surface. Honestly, not sure why they kept Boomerang and Trickster. I suppose Trickster...James Jesse anyway...was pretty brilliant in his own insane way, but Captain Boomerang? He throws boomerangs. Worse, he's clearly got loyalty problems.

[janegray]

I hate to say it, but the Rogues are absolutely considered joke characters outside of the relatively niche Flash fandom. They don't deserve that in the slightest, which is why I used three "", but that's definitely the common perception of them.

It's the same with Batroc the Leaper. He's one of the greatest martial artists in the world with a ton of experience as a high-level thief, but because he has a non-gritty presentation (which is intentional, he canonically puts on an over-the-top act on purpose because it's fun) half the writers portray him as a useless moron.

[mazway_75]

I did like a Gotham Central issue where they go to Central City on a case, brushing off the Rogues at first as "come on, we're Gotham, we're used to freaks" only for the local cops to say "that's the problem. They're not freaks, they're smart and that's what makes them dangerous."

I get they're low key in a lot of stuff but these guys give a hard time to someone who runs at the speed of sound, that's not someone who's a joke.

[blues32]

Batroc is sorely underestimated. Though, to be fair, when your handle is "The Leaper", it's hard to take them seriously. It's only marginally better than the Kangaroo as far as names go.

[mazway_75]

One of the best moments of Johns' run is Weather Wizard facing gunmen. "Guns? Man made your ammo. God made mine."

[dan_ingram]

Boomer was actually pretty good in a fight, with adaptable weapons.

You don't survive the Suicide Squad, if you're a pushover.

[lordultimus]

It's not so much the "Rogues are competent killers" that people are complaining about so much as the "MY generation is much cooler than YOUR generation" aspect.

[janegray]

That would normally bother me.

But in the case of a group of characters who used to be considered legitimately a big deal, and then got clowned by the next generation for no reason other than "they dared to be colourful and fun and that's CringeTM," it doesn't.

[jaxjyls]

I know Johns' name is considered toxic now but I liked this