alliterator: (Default)
[personal profile] alliterator posting in [community profile] scans_daily


"I have a real love for the sorceress and the knight," Howard says. "From Final Fantasy to Geralt and Yennefer in The Witcher, I love a sword-wielder and their more magical partner who is equally powerful and tough. That dynamic lets the characters react to the expectation that one of you defends the other or something; instead they can show how partnerships actually work and how people actually love each other."
-- Tini Howard


It all started back in 2004, when Joss Whedon had started Astonishing X-Men, but it just happened that Chris Claremont was also put on Uncanny X-Men at the time. Since his favorite character, Kitty, was otherwise preoccupied, though, he turned to his two other favorite characters: Betsy Braddock and Rachel Summers. In fact, this was when he brought Betsy and Rachel back to life.

Which is how, when House of M begins, they are able to escape the reality warp in Uncanny X-Men #462:








Yes, that's right: Jamie bound "their lives and fates together."

When they re-enter reality, they are immediately changed into their House of M selves: Princess Betsy (since Brian is the King of England) and her "companion" Rachel:




There's a lot of bantering back and forth between them like this.

When Claremont leaves, of course, not much else happens between them, until G. Willow Wilson started writing X-Men (2013) for her storyline "The Burning Earth" in X-Men #25. Storm is trapped underground, so Monet, Betsy, and Rachel go underground to find her, but encounter trouble:




And then the book ended a few issues later.

And now we come to the Krakoa era and Excalibur. Specifically, Excalibur #8, where Betsy decides to spare a baby Warwolf...and she knows just who can take care of it.




Later, during Hellfire Gala in issue 21:


And then, in the last issue:






And in Knights of X, it's just gotten more blatant:








Finally culminating in this page:


So there we go.

Date: 2022-07-22 07:54 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
And as was pointed out on twitter, the characters are depicted in the palette of the lesbian and bi pride flags on the cover.

Date: 2022-07-22 08:29 am (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
So in House of M, Elizabeth's name is spelled with an 's'?

Date: 2022-07-23 04:18 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: Psylocke from Marvel comics (psylocke)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
It has been on and off for decades!

Date: 2022-07-22 08:46 am (UTC)
angelophile: (Piece of my mind)
From: [personal profile] angelophile
I feel like posting Chris Claremont comics as evidence of bisexuality is cheating. In Chris Claremont comics everyone is bisexual.

Date: 2022-07-22 10:47 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I feel like with Rachel especially, you'd need to look quite hard for actual evidence of anything other than the most performative aspects of heterosexuailty.

Date: 2022-07-22 10:56 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Aside from that Shi'ar guy.

And even then, that felt a bit like the writers going "see? She's dating a guy! Completely of her own free will! Totally not gay!"

(and the bizarre crush on Nightcrawler. Which might not mean anything, because... hey. Nightcrawler.
... but let us never speak of it again.)

Date: 2022-07-22 07:11 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
I think Rachel decided the thing with Big Sword Shi'ar Guy was really just their shared Phoenix connection.

And like you said, Nightcrawler is Nightcrawler. Some people are attractive enough that orientation doesn't matter. Kurt Wagner. Nightwing. Idris Elba.

Was this Rachel with Franklin before she came back through time or was that an alternate Rachel*?

*who isn't a counterpart to this Rachel because we said so shut up
Edited Date: 2022-07-22 07:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2022-07-22 07:33 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
This. Franklin's ghost came even back to woo her again.

Date: 2022-07-22 02:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Wasn't there something about her having a crush on some dude in the original Excalibur days?

Date: 2022-07-22 06:27 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Alistaire Stuart, the brother of Marvel's Lethbridge-Stewart expy.

Date: 2022-07-22 06:43 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
If you're thinking of Alistaire Stuart of the Weird Happenings Organisation, that was the other way around.

He had a crush on Rachel, but it was Kitty who had a crush on him.

Date: 2022-07-22 06:57 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Kitty also understood why he had a crush on Rachel. Understood very well indeed.

Date: 2022-07-22 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
That's probably it. Was a long time since I read those issues.

Date: 2022-07-23 12:04 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Oh, good catch, I'd forgotten about Franklin.

Date: 2022-07-23 01:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
And from the looks of it, so had Rachel.

(Though maybe they were just together on account of being the only two teens in a concentration camp, but she did feel him die in her mind. That does sort of seem like the thing that warrants the occasional mention.)

Date: 2022-07-24 11:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
seriously, this is weird enough for me cause to me Rachel has single person sexuality for each gender, Kitty for women, Franklin for men. Anything else is just like performative

Date: 2022-07-22 08:57 am (UTC)
deh_tommy: Gavla from BIONICLE. For when I’m feeling argumentative, confrontational or altogether serious. (Gavla)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
It still feels to me like it came up out of nowhere in Excalibur #21.

Date: 2022-07-22 01:37 pm (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
To be fair, lots of things in the last Excalibur run came out of nowhere. Merlyn was the villain all of a sudden in the same issue where he appears, and then is treated as if he's been the Big Bad all along!

I'm sure some of the intended foreshadowing for these events is somehow being left on the cutting room floor.

Date: 2022-07-22 02:23 pm (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
I don't recall him being mentioned before he showed up at the big council meeting, but then it's been a while since I read through the series - any instances I should go back and look up?

Date: 2022-07-22 03:33 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: Gavla from BIONICLE. For when I’m feeling argumentative, confrontational or altogether serious. (Gavla)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Was he? He showed up once in a vision Brian had, one that resulted in Brian forsaking the right to Captain Britain when he chose the Sword of Might, then isn’t heard from again until he suddenly shows up out of nowhere to no one’s surprise despite his mysterious absence and it was revealed he was apparently the one who disappeared Arthur this whole time.

Date: 2022-07-22 06:45 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
In fairness, Merlyn being an amoral, manipulative schemer working behind the scenes to achieve his ends until he reveals himself is pretty much business as usual in any story involving Otherworld and Roma

Date: 2022-07-22 06:59 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
He never exhibited anti-mutant leanings before, though. He was a bastard, but he was a bastard without a preference.

Date: 2022-07-23 05:44 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
And that never happened before either. Lets call a retcon a retcon, yes?

Date: 2022-07-24 11:42 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I haven't been following comics recently, except occasionally here. I do seem to recall them mentioning the nature of stories affecting their nature(I have become so SICK of that bit) and all I can think is if they're aware of that affecting them, as so many major comics villains seem to be, why do none attempt to cast themselves as the hero of their story and twist things around

Date: 2022-07-22 07:07 pm (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
Last time I saw him (in Captain Britain and MI:13) his evil was drawn into a Fury shard and extracted from him (along with his insistence on spelling his name with a 'y'!). When/why did he break bad again?

Date: 2022-07-23 08:33 am (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
In the Secret Invasion tie-in, after he has Pete Wisdom (a mutant!!!) free him from his imprisonment, Merlin displays a Fury shard that was driven into his side. All the evil in him was drawn into it, and it is by inverting and destroying this evil that he resurrects Brian Braddock.

This Merlin then also goes on to push Faiza Hussein into becoming Excalibur, the sword that heals, so he was clearly a Good Guy, and Paul Cornell said as much in interviews at the time.

Interestingly, the Merlin in the text piece you posted - which, I'll admit, I tended to gloss over as world-building in my pathetic excuse for not remembering - is of the 'i' spelling variety, and the one on-panel is chanelling pure 'y' Merlyn energy. I'm going to put that down to a typo, as whichever Marvel staffer types up the text pieces just went with the traditional spelling.

Then again, since Roma returned to life with no explanation -BEFORE Secret Wars, no less! - expecting continuity in the magical Otherworld is probably as futile as a mortal human trying to impsoe order on the fae.

I'll just go with the flow. Merlyn is a douche.

EDIT: Huh, Marvel Merlyn's wiki page just re-directs to Roma. The most you can find on the man himself is on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_in_comics page, which shows no transitional state between friendly Cornell Merlin and asshole Howard Merlyn.

It's magic. We don't have to explain it.
Edited Date: 2022-07-23 08:36 am (UTC)

Date: 2022-07-23 01:03 pm (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
So it's Saturnyne's fault. If you create a 'terrible' land for a wizard to rule, OF COURSE he's going to go all Dark Lord about it! :P

The evil int he shard was not released, it was reveresed, and converted into energy to give life - rather than death - to Captain Britain. Merlin reversed the polarity of the neutron flow, and it's walking around as Brian Braddock.

Date: 2022-07-22 10:24 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Re: the quote
Which Final Fantasy would that be?

Date: 2022-07-22 10:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] super_fly
The most obvious one that comes to mind would probably be FF8 which uses the theme of a Sorceress and their stalwart protector abundantly: for Siefer and Edea, Squall and Rinoa.
Edited Date: 2022-07-22 10:38 am (UTC)

Date: 2022-07-22 03:58 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: A Yu-Gi-Oh! card. For talking about toy, games and hobby-related stuff. (Lady Debug)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
It’s probably more archetypal and not always literal given a good few of the games don’t even have knights in their settings. Off the top of my head, there’s Cecil & Rosa (IV), Cloud and Aerith(VII), Tidus & Yuna and Wakka & Lulu (X), Garland & Sarah (Stranger of Paradise), there’s probably a ton of others I’m forgetting.

Date: 2022-07-22 10:43 am (UTC)
dragontail: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dragontail
... I had no idea how badly I needed to see all of this tonight, but the grin on my face is so damn wide and so damn comfortable.

Date: 2022-07-22 03:01 pm (UTC)
didiji: Didiji 2 (Default)
From: [personal profile] didiji
Thank you for the beautiful post. Forthcoming or not, I'm really glad how things went on, since I do remember Uncanny X-Men #462 and always felt the need for some closure back then.

Date: 2022-07-22 06:50 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] giraffesforever
I always enjoy when someone takes the time to collect a theme across a couple decades, thanks alliterator.

I was one of the ones who had thought their flirtation in the recent Excalibur was a surprise, not because of their sexuality, but because I wasn't aware of any previous relationship between them. It's nice to see those earlier pages establish that there has been at least a close friendship. Long-time friends to more seems very in keeping with the X-people's history.

Date: 2022-07-22 10:05 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
I second that thanks. I really didn't know there was history there.

Date: 2022-07-23 01:51 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] blues32
I am disappointed. They fail to mention the best sorceress and knight. Dynaheir and Minsc. ...okay, nobody cares about Dynaheir, but everyone loves Minsc! "Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, watch it! I'm huge!" "Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!"

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