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[schmevil]

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Comments

[kingrockwell]

Aw yeah Karamazovs!

[thehefner]

Aw yeah indeed! God, I love that book.

Ever seen the movie with Yul Brenner and William Shatner? I long for it to be out on DVD, but I think at least it's on YouTube! I really adore it, even though it does away with all of the rich philosophical stuff from the book (necessarily, I fear).

[kingrockwell]

I haven't, but I've heard of it! Wasn't it Shatner's debut?

I've always been fascinated by "fall of aristocratic family" type stories, and always end up looking for analogues between them (i want to see the an adaptation of Brothers Karamazov played by Robins someday). With Karamazov being my favorite novel, it's backed up by The Royal Tenenbaums being my favorite movie and Arrested Development my favorite TV show. I'd prolly throw The Magnificent Ambersons in there somewhere if I'd ever seen it more than once (there's another that needs to be on DVD!)

If I had the money, I'd already have a tattoo that says "I always wanted to be a Karamazov" in some mixture of Russian and English (most likely just English in Cyrillic letters).

Which is your favorite brother?

[thehefner]

I'm gonna need to watch all time sometime and see how it holds up. I remember LOVING it as a film (as an adaptation, it's more suspect, but as a film, I found it a moving and sumptuous experience).

It was Shatner's third film! He played "Alexi," better known to most of us as Alyosha. Since the philosophical parts were put on the backburner, he's essentially relegated to being a supporting character (the moral guide) while Dimitri (Brenner) is the lead and focus.

HA! My best friend in college and I had the exact same idea of doing BROTHERS KARAMAZOV with the Robins! I'd absolutely love to see that done. I may have to write the bloody thing myself if no one else does. My big idea would be to have Harvey be Smyerdakov. He was Batman's first partner, pre-Robin, and he's the bastard child and Wacky Uncle of the Bat-Family.

Only problem is, I honestly can't decide which Robin would be which brother. Which one's the idealist? Which one's the cynic? And which one's the passionate one teetering on the edge of darkness? Arguments could be made for all of them!

If the question is "Which of them killed/kidnapped Batman?", depending on how in-canon one wants to make this adaptation, Jason would be the likeliest for Dimitri. With that done, I could sooner see Dick as Ivan and Tim as Alyosha, but I dunno. What think you?

God, agreed on TENENBAUMS. I adore fucked-up family dynamics. I do need to see ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT and MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS at some point too. The latter's too important not to see, and the former might already be too browncoated for me to enjoy, but I gotta check it out.

My favorite brother? Hard to say! It used to be Alyosha, because he was like a Prince Myshkin who could actually survive and function in this harsh world of ours. But the Harvey Dent fan in me definitely sees the appeal in Dimitri. Until I reread the book, I'm gonna put my money down on Alyosha.

[kingrockwell]

Harvey as Smerdyakov is an interesting thought, one that hadn't occurred to me. I would've just shoe-horned Damian in because he's the youngest, most arrogant and I think they're both jerks. He's young enough though that we could make him Ilyusha if we really stretch it.

To me, the division's pretty clear, it just plays with the birth order a bit. dick would be Alyosha because they relate to people in much the same way, and though he's shown a rebellious streak at times, he's often the last person to judge Bruce for any particular slight. Jason is very much to Bruce what Mitya was to Fyodor, and certainly the most hot-head of the three. Tim is easily the brainy one, and while often a little cheerier than you might connect with Ivan, his disposition more recently puts him jut dour and serious enough to fit the bill, especially the way he's been shirking all his friends since Red Robin started.

The obvious correlation between Alfred and Gregory is probably what started me thinking about this, so that's practically gift-wrapped. I'd be tempted to cast Steph as Katya for the Tim/Ivan connection, though it's weak, and I can't think of a good fit for Grushenka, either (if you want a shallow one, there's Selina). I do think I'd like Aunt Harriet for Mrs. Khokhlakov, though. Also needs a spot for Babs so bad (and Cass too).

I've got a firm lack of Zosima, but I can't think of anyone. The closest comics analogue I can think of is Richard Dragon, but he's not really a Bat-character.

I've got a fondness and sympathy for each of the brothers (except for Smerdy, that guy's a dick), but Alyosha is easily my favorite, prolly for much the same reason I like Wonder Woman. 'Cos damn if I don't wish I could act more like them more often!

[thehefner]

Aw shit, that's right. We have Damian to contend with now. Also, Steph. We came up with this idea back in 2003, before either Steph or Damian became Robins. Actually, before Jason even came back to life!

The question really becomes which time period we're drawing from. Me, I'm choosing around that Red Hood period with Jason back, so we just have the three boy Robins and Harvey. Because the dynamics change all around every couple of years with continuity. But generally, I think you're right: Dick as Alyosha, Tim as Ivan, and Jason as Dimitri.

Another reason I'd want to use Harvey for Smyerdy: he has a pivotal relationship with all three Robins. He's been the trial by fire for each of them, there's crazy history there. Really, the only one who doesn't have a reason to outright hate Harvey is Tim, our Ivan, which could thus make that relationship work even more.

Obviously, we'd have to fudge the adaptation, if only because Batman is not the sleazy shitbag that Fyodor was, nor will Bruce be killed (unless this is out of continuity).

Crazy thought: Zosima=Superman? Just thinking about Clark's relationship with Dick.

Also, if Grushekna is getting involved with Fyodor and Dimitri alike, then... well... Talia? It's not perfect, but it's all I got.

[kingrockwell]

Well, Bruce may not be a sleazebag, but he's got ways of his own to alienate the people around him. And his currently being "dead" makes it work pretty well for right now!

I dunno about Supes for Zosima. While he has a mentor-y relationship with Dick, he's better known for his relationship with Bruce, which could color everything involving the two of them very differently!

Hmm, on some level, I really kind of like Selina for Grushenka, but on the other hand there's nothing about her in Grushy's "pining away for her soldier" backstory. Talia might be better, especially if you cast Ra's as Musijalowicz, with all the unfavorable implications that would carry.

Now, if I had any problem with Harvey as Smerdyakov, it would involve his loss of status in that role. Going from a position of power to one of subservience changes the dynamic between himself and the Robins immensely, and strips him of the respect and authority he might regularly command.

One thing about Damian in that role is that he's already at the bottom of the ladder, but, like Smerdyakov, perceives himself at the top. And whether it's in the text or not (i haven't read much of Morrison's pre-BftC Batman), I've always seen his relationship with Bruce as a kid trying to prove himself but falling on deaf ears. The kid of bitterness that would eventually inspire definitely makes him for Smerdyakov, though it would change his relationship with Tim, though not on Tim's part. I guess it would just make his hatred for Tim less outright, really.

[thehefner]

True, but again, we get into the fudging aspect of adaptation even with Bruce's "dead" status. Because if we went straight-up with KARAMAZOV, the story would then have to set Jason up as the main suspect, then reveal the "killer" to be Damian.

Well, until we can think of a better Zosima figure for Dick/Alyosha, I'm going for Supes. Heck, I could even see potential for exploring the father figures clashing, even if we make them friends rather than what Fyodor and Zosima were in the book. It may have to be one of those major but necessary differences with this adaptation.

And hell, let's face it, this version would have WAY more fight scenes that Dostoevsky's original. ;)

Yeah, Selina works for a lot of Grushenka, but not all the time. Talia does seem to work better, unless we can think of anyone better. Who else has (or could) Jason have a history with who can also have history with Bruce? Nocturna? Or was she with Dick?

That's a good point, and lord knows I wouldn't want to strip Harvey of his power status. But I wouldn't have had Harvey in a position of subservience, necessarily. Perhaps what sets this off is Tim and Harvey having an encounter early on, during which Tim inadvertently gives Harvey the cause/idea/"permission" to kill/kidnap Batman and frame Jason.

Your arguments for Damian are compelling, but the major problem with it, as far as I see, is that Damian wouldn't actually do anything to Bruce. He's capable of many things, but he clearly worships Bruce, and deaf ears or not, he always strikes me as far more willing to take out that anger on the Robins (Tim, in particular, but also Dick, whom he currently chastises for essentially not being Bruce), but never on Batman himself.

Hm. For the Devil, do we use the Joker? Or even Neron? Eh, fuck Neron. Perhaps Etrigan? I'm leaning towards Joker.

Shit, who else is there in the book? It's been six years since I read it!

*checks out SparkNotes' character list to refresh memory*

Oh, what about Lise? Could that be Babs or Cass? I could see young Batgirl-era Babs working for Lise, with some work. Older, more mature Babs, I dunno. Or if we fudge the adaptation a good deal... dare I say, Babs for the Madame Khokhlakov figure and Cass as Lise? That would be seriously fuzzy, but maybe there's potential?

Also, alternate for Damian: what about Rakitin?

And check out how they sum up Zosima: "Zosima preaches a message of actively loving mankind, forgiving the sins of others, and cherishing God’s creation. The clarity of Zosima’s faith gives him extraordinary insight into the minds of the people he meets." Yeah, I'm giving that to Clark.

Hey, if there's going to be a trial sequence where Jason is accused of killing Batman, maybe that's the place for Harvey? He could be the defense and Two-Face, the prosecution (and the Judge for the judge, even though I really dislike the idea of a third personality)?

Sorry, I'm just seriously having fun running with this. I've wanted to do this for years, but I haven't ever met any other Bat-fan who's read the book.

[kingrockwell]

Zosima!Supes: But I'm a Bruce/Clark shipper :(
(and Richard Dragon really is a very nice fit without being too disconnected (well, he's generally said to have trained Bruce, but only Dixon's series established him as training Dick, and the less said about that series, the better) or actually superpowered)

Don't like Babs for Lise, even if the wheelchair fits. Can't think of anyone young or Dick-loving enough to fit it properly, or anyone else who wouldn't be somewhat demeaned by the role... Alyosha/Lise is almost closer to Tim/Steph, if you substitute the "you're too young" for "you're not ready", and make Alyosha a sanctimonious dick. Hmm...

Khokhlakov is best Aunt Harriet, though Babs could work if we basically changed everything about Mrs. Khokhlakov. Oh! Maybe Kate (or worse, Beth!) and Bette Kane!

Damian as Rakitin is excellent, my only apprehension is cutting him out of the family completely (though i guess you won't get many arguments against it).

If there is a trial, Harvey's involvement is obvious. Him playing both sides is excellent, but it would change those scenes completely if he was also Smerdyakov. I kind of like having Superman as the judge.

The Joker is the Devil, no contest. Somehow, I also keep thinking of Riddler as Miusov and Harley as Lizaveta.

No problem! I've felt that way for months at least, but most Bat-fans I know aren't as big on Dostoevsky, and most Dostoevsky fans aren't as big on Batman!

[thehefner]

Hey, the shipping doesn't have to get in the way here! Bear in mind, I'm approaching this as canon as I can, which means we have to rework or completely lose aspects of the original Dostoevsky. I mean, it seems rather evident that we may have to pretty well completely change everything about Mrs. Khokhlakov and Lise. I mean, Aunt Harriet is perfect for the character as she is, but she's not a regular figure, and dang it, we need Babs and Cass in there! Although, hmm, Kate and Bette Kane... very nice potential there!

It'd be impossible to cut Damian off from the family, so his inclusion would majorly shake up the adaptation no matter what. I bet there's a way to have him be the Rakitan figure and still figure as part of the family. It'd just have to be one of the bigger liberties to take from the source material.

I haven't read the Dixon storyline in question, and I barely remember Richard Dragon from his stuff in THE QUESTION, but does he work as well as a moral guide for Dick as Clark does (or would as a Zosima figure)?

If it's cool with you, I'd like to link this whole thing to my LJ! I've been having a blast!

[kingrockwell]

The way I see it, working directly from continuity will only get in the way. It'd stay as close as possible, but will necessarily have to veer from both the DCU and Dostoevsky at points.
Maybe we could genderswap a few characters to work Babs and Cass in? There are still some supporting cast members unfilled, and the gender balance between the two stories is pretty varied.
I can't really think who might be close enough to Jason to work as Perkhotin, either, but it might be funny if the kids were the Titans or something.

There really isn't much about his training Dick in Dixon's Richard Dragon than just a splash page in #7 that included some of his students over the years (though Dick guests in the second issue and the impression that's left there is Richard only indirectly trained him by training Bruce). I say that series is best left forgotten because it doesn't treat Richard quite the way he'd always been established, as a general moral guide, teacher, and guru on the spiritual side of the martial arts. It was more the fighting that the Batfamily members who've learned under him took away, but his role as a moral and spiritual guide is prominent in nearly every appearance he's made post-Crisis (teaching Vic in The Question, teaching Babs in Batman Chronicles #5, teaching Helena in Huntress: Cry For Blood, and Renee in 52).

Making him Zosima also gives me an excuse to cast an assistant/caretaker in a conspicuous blue fedora for him (i'm sure Zosima had someone other than Alyosha helping him in that capacity, i'd have to re-read it, though i'm sure they were prolly never named). It also opens the option of making Father Ferapont into Lady Shiva, stretch as that may be.

Link away!

[thehefner]

Okay, so you'd approach it from Dostoevsky first and the Bat-characters second. How in-canon would this be? Would it be its own continuity? An Elseworlds? Would it even be modern setting?

My interest with this would be to stay true to the Bat-characters, which would itself override any conflicts the story might have with the original. As such, when it comes to getting more of the Bat-characters to fill out the roles, I'd absolutely be fine with some genderswapping!

At this point, I fear we're delving into territory that I frankly don't even remember about the book. I'm definitely gonna try and give the book a reread, or at least reread crucial chapters since it'd take me a couple months at least to get through it, and I have too much else to do! Would that the recent translation would be available on audiobook, so I could listen to it while commuting!

I'm still torn on which Zosima to go for, but the prospect of bringing the Question into this definitely wins your argument major points, I'll grant you.

[kingrockwell]

Hmm, it seems like the way I've been thinking has tried to stick plot-wise with Dostoevsky and character-wise with Batman, though I don't even know how I expect that to work. I guess I'm looking for the best fit with minimal changes, but ready to make what changes necessary.

I'd always imagined it as an Elseworlds, but putting it in proper continuity, or at least make it a non-continuity story based in the regular setting, might be interesting. Whether it would even be a proper adaptation or a loosely based story, I'm not quite sure of anymore.

One thing I miss about taking the bus to work is that I no longer have as much time to read books.