THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS: The Joker and other jokes

[starwolf_oakley]

There are some interesting things about the Joker in the DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. He has white instead of red lips, he doesn't wear his "traditional" purple suit, and he doesn't laugh insanely or even smile *that* much. Anyway...









I've wondered if the deep voice John DiMaggio uses for the Joker in "Under the Red Hood" would work for this cooler, or colder, Joker. And Miller does seem to be giving the Joker a Jack Nicholson-esque look, three years before Tim Burton's Batman movie.



10 pages from a 45 page story in DARK KNIGHT RETURNS #3

As I've said before, Dr. Bartholomew Wolper looks remarkably like F. Murray Abraham. Some of the stuff he says sounds downright idiotic, which was probably part of the point.

The idea of "costumed crazies" wanting to try their luck against Batman (threatening Gothamites in the process) has some merit. It's the reason Bane first came to Gotham City. A deleted scene in "Batman Forever" has a reporter (named Kenneth Frequency) comment on it as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEGl8FJ99sg



It's a little tricky to follow, but I'm guessing Batman is fighting Yindel's SWAT team on the roof of the studio in the next few pages.









That last panel has Superman, commenting a lot on "us" (superheroes) vs. "them" (regular people). Most of Superman's thoughts in issue #3 go on about how Bruce "was the one they used against us."

Batman has similar thoughts in issue #4, thinking, "You sold us out, Clark. You gave them power that should have been ours." Now, Batman having contempt for "regular people" is *very* interesting.

A Batman who resents the "normal" people of Gotham City but can't stop himself from beating up criminals. Hmm. Would that be a joke?

Selina Kyle has thoughts about how the world has changed and Batman just doesn't realize that. As this was done before BATMAN: YEAR ONE it must be the first time Frank Miller used his "Catwoman was a prostitute!" idea.



Via one of Selina's girls, the Joker gets one Congressman to shout for a nuclear strike on Corto Maltese before jumping/falling to his death. It's not like the Joker to get all "political," even if you ignore the whole "mind control lipstick" element.



"And it would never be enough." Sheesh. Is the Joker a homicidal maniac who is obsessed with Batman, or is he a homicidal maniac *because* he's obsessed with Batman?





Years if not decades later, and that Irving, CA kid still cracks me up.

The Joker's "This is too weird" line means that Batman isn't acting like himself. After all, Batman did lodge a batarang in the Joker's eye.

I'm also adding a page as I'm a little confused over the "fight" between Robin (Carrie Kelly) and Abner (the fat guy who builds the Joker's stuff).



For years I've been uncertain what happens to Abner here. For a while I thought the track turned sharply and he lost his balance. Now it looks like another section of track hit him and sent him flying. Any ideas?

The last two pages are the Joker's spine going like celery.

Comments

RE: The Fight

[mrdave2176.livejournal.com]

Abner was not paying attention to the signs saying keep your arms and legs inside the cart at all times. He is clipped by a bit of track that extends over the section that the cart is on. I always supposed that Miller did that because a "flag-gate" would have not been substantial enough to take out someone of Abner's bulk.

Personally I'd have thought it would have been hilarious if he'd fallen off the apex of a loop-the-loop only to be run over by the cart again at the bottom. But Frank went for something that was more visceral and built on the way your guts knot up when you hear/read the wet sounds of meaty impact.

[angelophile]

Abner and Carrie are riding the roller coaster. At one point the track dips under another section of track. Abner's failed to heed the advice not to stand and is knocked out of the rollercoaster cart as it travels under the the other section of track.

[sherkahn]

And Miller does seem to be giving the Joker a Jack Nicholson-esque look, three years before Tim Burton's Batman movie.

Personally I think it was 80's Christopher Walken who inspired this interpretation, not Nicholson. Intelligent, smart and tough and can go from charming to psycho in a blink of an eye. But most important of all, dangerous.

[cyberghostface]

The Joker scenes are probably my favorite in TDK. I love the look on his face when he comes out of catatonia.

[irrelevant]

Yes. That was a totally canon Joker reaction, I think. The 'darling' as well--not in a romantic way, but the horrendously screwed up way the Joker views Batman.

Sometimes, I don't think anyone is truly real to the Joker but himself and Batman.

[lovenkisses]

Wow, Carrie Kelly kinda reminds me of the La Roux girl.

[psychopathicus_rex]

The Jack Nicholson feel may not be coincidental - apparently, Tim Burton did a crash course in Batman before agreeing to take the reins, and one of the things that convinced him to do so was 'Dark Knight Returns'. It's quite possible that he intentionally cast Nicholson because this version of the Joker reminded him of him. (I'm still a little disappointed that he didn't go with Willem Dafoe, personally - Nicholson was terrific, but just IMAGINE Dafoe as the Joker. Wouldn't he have been PERFECT?)
One of the things that never made sense to me about 'DKR' is those damn flying baby-bombs. Intelligent bombs that look like grotesque toddlers and fly? The hell? I mean, what convinced Miller that creepy flying kamikaze rugrats was in ANY way thematically connected to the Joker, or to anything even remotely connected with Batman? Was he licking toads when he wrote this, or what?

Have always thought that too..

[steverodgers5]

And what's worse, Is that I think Jack Nicholson would have made a terrific Norman Osbourne. Much more so than Dafoe. I really wish we could change history so that they'd had each other's roles!..

Re: Have always thought that too..

[psychopathicus_rex]

You mean Nicholson as he was when he was in 'Batman'? If so, I'd agree, but not if you mean he should have been cast in 'Spider-Man' in the year it actually came out - he's still a great actor, but he's getting a little long in the tooth for such roles, unfortunately. Still, if the original Batman and Spider-Man movies could have been successfully made in the same year - and what a year it would've been! - exchanging their villains would have been pretty cool, yeah. Nicholson was still old enough to be convincing as Harry's father back then, but he would have still had enough athleticism to pull off the stunts - and Dafoe in the '80's was just SCARY. He would have been too young for the whole 'you killed my father' bit, but I've always preferred that role filled by Joe Chill anyway, and physically and energetically, he'd have been perfect. Ever seen 'Streets of Fire'? He plays a psycho gang leader in that, and the dude is seriously one twisted sense of humor away from the Joker.

Re: Have always thought that too..

[steverodgers5]

Yeah, though I still think he could have pulled it off around Spiderman. (What was that around 2001/2002?) Obviously not now though. As the last decade hasn't been kind. Especially to his waistline! LOL! (And ditto for Michael Ironside who at one point would have been equally as perfect)
I don't know who I'd cast as Norman now. The best contender would probably be Hugo Weaving, but some idiot at Marvel has wasted the chance of that happening by casting him as the Red Skull, and so they'll never use him in the new Spiderman series.. (Sigh!)
But I know what you mean about William Dafoe. I haven't seen Streets of Fire, but my first experience of him as a villain was in Wild at Heart. And he creeped the hell out of me! He made Nicholas cage seem quite normal by comparison. Heck even when he was playing a hero in White Sands he seemed like he might turn at any moment and take someone out!

Re: Have always thought that too..

[psychopathicus_rex]

Actually, I'd think the Red Skull would be a good role to cast someone in if you DID want to use him again. I mean, the whole deal with the Skull is that he's either constantly wearing a skull-mask, or his face genuinely looks like a red skull, depending on what's currently the case. Either way, you almost never see his actual face, and if they're going with the 'deformed skull-face' version, they could easily use him in something else - it's not like he'd be easily recognizable as himself with the makeup on.
I recommend 'Streets of Fire'. It's a cult film, so you'll either love it or hate it, but I'm certainly in the former category, and while Dafoe doesn't have a hugely visible part in it, he makes the most of what screen time he's got. (He also wears a pair of overalls that are a sight to behold - as one website reviewer put it, they 'appear to be made of trash bags', although they're probably leather or something. Either way, they make for a memorable visual.)

Re: Have always thought that too..

[starwolf_oakley]

In the first draft of the Batman screenplay, Jack Napier is only 32 (and didn't kill the Waynes). Maybe they *were* hoping for Willem Dafoe.

JACK NAPIER, 32, is right-hand man and chief enforcer to
Boss Carl Grissom. His features are delicate, almost
feminine, and he takes a vain, gangsterish pride in his
appearance. He is also absolutely merciless.

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/batman_early.html

[shadur]

It's not like the Joker to get all "political," even if you ignore the whole "mind control lipstick" element.

No, but it /is/ like the Joker to have his victims do or say something ludicrous before jumping to their deaths because it'll horrify the onlookers even more (and because he'd think it funny).

Besides, Corto Maltese is the banana republic island that's the focus of a cold war staredown between the US and the USSR, so everyone's really tense about the place.

[starwolf_oakley]

Besides, Corto Maltese is the banana republic island that's the focus of a cold war staredown between the US and the USSR, so everyone's really tense about the place.

Indeed. The Corto Maltese subplot seems a little dated, Cold War-wise, even by 1986 standards.

It seems the country was in DKR since Miller was a fan of Italian comic book creator Hugo Pratt. Corto Maltese was mentioned in the 1989 Batman movie and the Corto Maltese diamonds are in the LEGO Batman video game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corto_Maltese