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[personal profile] thebigapricot posting in [community profile] scans_daily

The great Tumblr outage of 2010 caused a delay but voting is back today. As usual, the moments in today's pool are not the final moments. You select 3 moments to go to the finals from the list. And the scans below are just for legality, they are not your choices. Today's poll is open until 8PM EST

To vote in today's poll click the link here.

And for legality:
Soranik Natu becomes a Lantern


Wonder Woman walks through fire in "A League of One"

Date: 2010-12-07 03:09 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Last time I accidently voted twice for Waller. I selected the Barda scene, but my vote got counted under Waller.

After two time, I gave up. Hoping that doesn't happen this time.

Date: 2010-12-07 03:40 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Tried to vote for Barda, but it went through as Waller.


Whatever, it's working right now. GO PROJECTA!

Date: 2010-12-07 03:31 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I'm surprised Princess Projecta's event isn't doing better.

Date: 2010-12-07 03:49 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Wonder Woman walks through fire in "A League of One"


couldnt help but think of this :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wFjWGnYsJY

Date: 2010-12-07 03:52 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
god this one was so hard!

but i had to go with Babs vs Braniac, Supergirl vs antimonitor, and Rene taking the Mark of Cain (because that was a big OMG moment)

Date: 2010-12-07 04:06 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Personally I never considered "Batgirl makes Batman bleed" as a big memorable moment. Kinda cool, but not, like, "Cassandra step in front of Commissioner Gordon to save his life," big.

Date: 2010-12-07 04:15 pm (UTC)
perletwo: losh big universe big trouble (legion - big universe)
From: [personal profile] perletwo
LEGION FANS! Projectra's execution of Nemesis Kid is on there! You know what you gotta do, don't you?

(and naturally the only post on here that has it, the images are down. pfeh.)

Date: 2010-12-07 04:37 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
hmmm i never read taht....

Date: 2010-12-07 05:56 pm (UTC)
gehayi: (warrior queens (warrior_queens))
From: [personal profile] gehayi
Go here. Projectra annihilating a villain who has devastated her planet, put her in chains and murdered her husband--and who is completely immune to her illusion-making power--is the freakin' EPITOME of awesome.

So much so that I had to vote for it as a Memorable Moment. (My other two being Oracle vs. Brainiac and Supergirl defeating the Anti-Monitor and saving Earth at the cost of her life.)

Date: 2010-12-07 08:33 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I voted for it too. It sealed the character's individuality from within the upteen Legion members (what she would be willing to do as opposed to the other legionnaires) and you don't get more of a person acting with "agency" and taking initiative than that.

Date: 2010-12-07 08:51 pm (UTC)
perletwo: kermit the frog (Default)
From: [personal profile] perletwo
Yep yep - furthermore, she accomplished what all the "more powerful" Legionnaires, separately and together, hadn't been able to do in six issues of story (and that includes her husband the grandmaster martial artist) - cut off the head of the LoSV.

Date: 2010-12-07 06:06 pm (UTC)
perletwo: kermit the frog (Default)
From: [personal profile] perletwo
"Eye for an Eye," the first five/six issue arc when the series went to Baxter Paper and restarted the numbering at #1 in the, ummm, late 1980s? Extremely awesome. Among the long-term consequences: a new Legion of Super-Villains came together; Light Lass got turned back into Lightning Lass and rejoined the group; Saturn Girl had her baby/babies; Karate Kid got dead; Projectra left the Legion; and a half-dozen Legionnaires got lost between dimensions for many, many months. Also, lovely Steve Lightle art. Well worth picking up if you get the chance.

Date: 2010-12-07 05:22 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
It does depress me when I try to thing of great DC moments with female characters and really just come up empty since all the big crossovers end up being guy heavy and they're more memorable really since DC and Marvel have become more and more event heavy.

Even the ones listed here and at the voting area are nice but hardly seem memorable, heck I haven't even seen most of them.

Date: 2010-12-07 06:28 pm (UTC)
badficwriter: Flying saucer-I WANT TO BELIEVE (Default)
From: [personal profile] badficwriter
Same here. It's almost worse that many of the 'big moments' with women are: new costume, realization of love interest, getting hurt.

S'what I get for being a GL fan.

Date: 2010-12-07 06:04 pm (UTC)
irrelevant: (Huntress :P)
From: [personal profile] irrelevant
My most memorable moment is Steph slapping Bruce. =P

But M'gann's evil puppies run a close second.

Date: 2010-12-07 06:29 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i was torn between alot of these. wonder woman walkng through the fire (insert buffy comment here) M'gann's puppies. had to go with Rene taking on the mark of Cain, Oracle vs Braniac, and Supergirl vs Anti-monitor

Date: 2010-12-07 06:41 pm (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
Honestly, anything Wonder Woman does that's awesome is automatically more memorable, considering her mixed history . . .

Date: 2010-12-07 06:47 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] warpedhand
I could never get into League of One. I thought it showed Wonder Woman's weaknesses at least as much if not more than her strengths.

'Course, I think Steph slapping Bruce is a hells of a lot more about how she doesn't pay attention than any sense of appropriate response, so what ever.

Date: 2010-12-07 07:44 pm (UTC)
bluefall: Barbara Minerva in a Santa hat (festive Minerva)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
And people say S_D is a hive mind.

Date: 2010-12-07 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] warpedhand
Heh. Seriously though, I love your analysis of Wonder Woman, and I love how seriously you take the myths she comes from (being a Classics Major, I can relate). I just disagree on some things.

Date: 2010-12-07 10:28 pm (UTC)
bluefall: bluescale wonder woman (Wonder in bluescale)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Hey, no sweat. It's totally a valid viewpoint, and the story does showcase her amazon worldview, which as I just finished teal deering to Retro, certainly can be her particular kryptonite. It just seems odd to me to call out that particular story as an example of that, since the narrative explicitly justifies her decision there and supports it as the right one, marking her faith in the Oracle as a strength in this case.

Date: 2010-12-07 09:46 pm (UTC)
retro_nouveau: AARP Bruce (33)
From: [personal profile] retro_nouveau
Weaknesses? Well, let's go down the list. Uh ... Can't breathe water? I got nothing.

And Steph just reacted naturally to the suddenness of the moment, kind of a Freudian Slap.

I must align myself diametrically opposed on both of these. Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but I, for one, am not going to stand here and listen to you badmouth the Justice League of America! Ladies and gentlemen!

Date: 2010-12-07 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] warpedhand
Trusting in the oracles more than her own teammates.

Date: 2010-12-07 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] warpedhand
That's the biggest problem I have, but it's all basically in her outlook. She doesn't really have many physiological weaknesses to speak of.

Date: 2010-12-07 10:23 pm (UTC)
bluefall: (Wonder in greyscale)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Diana's weakness is her Lawfulness. Most of the wider comics fanbase looks at her and sees "female Superman" and thus they want some kind of kryptonite, so you can see where stuff like the "bound by a man" and "but she can still be hit by bullets" gets traction and attention, but really, in terms of weaknesses, she's of the Batman mold - it's not about some physical trick you can pull on her, it's about taking one of her strengths to its logical extreme to the point where it becomes detrimental (the way Bruce's self-sufficiency and preparedness can be manipulated into dangerous emotional isolation and paranoia).

To wit: Diana's an amazon. Part of that cultural identity is being beholden to gods who are not always good people, and to laws that don't always make sense. It means believing in prophecy and fighting murderers on their own terms or letting them go unpunished if they know the right ritual to hide behind.

Most of the time, this is a source of tremendous strength for her. As long as she's acting in accord with her code, she can't be unsettled or thrown off in battle by the headgames that trip other heroes up, and she doesn't struggle with self-doubt. When she's lost, when her friends abandon her, when her mother goes batshit on her or her people cast her out, when she doesn't know what else to do, she falls back on her duty and it gives her the comfort and purpose she needs to get back on her feet and back in control. (See also: why Gail's Warkiller arc makes no sense to me.)

It does mean, however, that she can be manipulated. Hiketeia was basically one big fail on her part - as long as the Furies play by the rules there's nothing Diana can do, and so because they do, Danny dies. The Medousa fight, in a stadium on live TV, was amazing; it was also an unacceptable risk to millions of lives that someone like Clark or Bruce would never have taken. Diana won the fight in the Embassy and was three seconds from smashing Medousa's face into the floor right then, but had to stop, and allow the possibility of Circe's plan going through, because she had to honor the Ares-sanctioned challenge.

Now, I personally think this is fantastic. Seeing Diana get trapped in a cage of code and honor like the Medousa fight and winning on those terms anyway is just amazing to me, proof of her heroism and badassery and a charge to me as a fan to a magnitude that Clark fighting off kryptonite has never achieved. Unfortunately I appear to be a distinct minority on that count; her writers, as a rule, would much rather free her of both those restrictions and the strengths that come with them, and waste time instead poking at mundane unimaginative "vulnerabilities" like brute force and/or threatening her friends.

Date: 2010-12-07 11:01 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] warpedhand
Oh, I'm not saying it was a weakness of character. This was a character weakness, if that difference makes sense. I agree that the whole 'beholden to her gods and her ancient laws' thing makes her interesting and fascinating as a person and as a hero. Unfortunately, it doesn't really fit with where she stands outside of that, in the greater DC universe. Because the rules she follows are obsolete, and the gods she follows can petty, vicious, scheming bastards. So while I think it makes for an interesting character, when it's used to screw over other people. in this case the Justice League specifically, there need to be consequences. I guess I just didn't think the ending was that satisfying.

Another part I find unsatisfying is that this doesn't even seem to occur to her. Diana is not stupid. She's heard countless stories about how the oracles come true after the fact. So why would she ever take something like that at face value, I have no idea. Diana is certainly smart enough to figure out that not everything is as it seems, and be able to instinctively and naturally navigate the politics, so some self-awareness would not have gone amiss for me.

Finally, (finally!) the last thing that I find troubling is that from her actions, it seems that Diana does not value the sacrifice of her teammates. They are fully prepared to give their lives, but Diana arbitrarily decides that her 'knowledge' trumps their commitment. Even ignoring the whole thing about how a dragon really shouldn't be that much trouble for the 6 of them not counting J'onn, it just seems disrespectful that she wouldn't at least try to talk to them first.

I will say that I prefer this as a weakness, the problem is resolving it satisfactorily without making Diana look like a chump.

Date: 2010-12-08 12:58 am (UTC)
retro_nouveau: AARP Bruce (26)
From: [personal profile] retro_nouveau
I didn't get the situation the same way you did? For me the prophecy was that the dragon and everyone in the battle would die. So Diana's response was to decide to be the only one to show up for the battle. I think that throwing yourself on the grenade to save your team is the most awesome and heroic thing possible. She can't tell them that she's going off to die by herself, so the story goes the only way it can.

Throw in the art where every panel belongs on a museum wall, and I don't know how it gets any better.

Date: 2010-12-08 03:52 am (UTC)
bluefall: (Wonder)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
She's heard countless stories about how the oracles come true after the fact. So why would she ever take something like that at face value, I have no idea.

Ah, but she doesn't! Instinctively navigating the politics is exactly what she does. The prophecy says "the League will die," and Diana goes "well, in that case, the League is me," and goes about completely subverting the expected outcome. If she took the prophecy at face value she'd advise them all to make out their wills while she set her own affairs in order. Instead, she throws everything she has into saving six of the seven lives the prophecy supposedly condemns, with full faith that she'll be able to pull it off and "trick" the Fates.

Because the rules she follows are obsolete

Say rather, "arbitrary." Most of our rules are arbitrary as well, after all. My favorite example is always file-sharing. Our society generally considers file-sharing unethical, but that's a purely subjective perspective based on our own economic setup and cultural history. It's pretty easy to imagine a different culture that considers not distributing music to be highly unethical, and would consider the commercialization of art to be a grave insult to human dignity (after all, there are people even in our society right now who believe that despite the wider ethic).

If you look at, for example, Hiketeia - it *is* a form of justice. The law can't touch Danny, but then again, she's going to spend the rest of her life in slavery. Working off her debt to society under the orders of a wise, compassionate teacher who will treat her well and show her better ways to deal? I can think of a lot of prison reformists who'd consider that a much more just and positive punishment for her crime than wasting tax dollars in prison. It's not a perfect system by any means, but neither is ours. "Outdated" implies a superiority that doesn't exist. Her rules are very different, and sometimes incompatible with ours, but that doesn't make them inherently inferior (and isn't that part of the whole message? Open-mindedness and a willingness to see the virtue in other ways of thinking?).

(I mean, obviously if she were totally Homeric Greek it'd be pretty fucking gross and "outdated" would be far too kind an adjective, but if she were Homeric Greek she wouldn't be a woman to begin with, so.)

it seems that Diana does not value the sacrifice of her teammates.

This is an interesting one. That's absolutely an issue, whether she respects them as fellow warriors with the right to choose to die if the cause merits it, or considers them children to be coddled. I mean, no one saw it as more disrespectful than me when Ollie tased Dinah to keep her out of a fight.

Thinking about it, I think there's a couple reasons that didn't strike me as a problem in League of One, and they all come down to the fact that while Diana believes in prophecy, she knows the rest of them don't. So, they can't really have the same... informed consent, I guess? as warriors in this situation that Diana does. They'll go in believing that the situation is dangerous, but they have a chance. There's no way she can possibly make them understand that they don't. And I'm sure she knows that they would all still be willing if they did understand, but that's still not the same as them actually being able to make the choice. Which, to me, seems like a fair, totally un-disrespectful reason to jump on the grenade for them, as Retro put it.

The other bigger thing is that their deaths would be pointless. Remember, the prophecy says that the dragon dies too. No matter what, if the League fights Karfang, Karfang doesn't walk (flap?) away. Ergo, the boys can't possibly need to be there - the prophecy guarantees that even one person can defeat Karfang if that one person is the League. Therefore, if more than one person goes, everyone in excess of that one necessary person dies for nothing.

Which, again, isn't something Diana is going to be able to get across to the others. They'll all have the Superman reaction ("if it's that dangerous we're all needed"). And besides, what are they going to do, draw straws? Even if she could somehow make them believe that it is a one-person suicide mission, you'd still end up with all seven of them trying to be the one who gets there first, so the fact that Diana gets the jump on the competition is just her saving time. (And of course then you're getting into the issue of "can one person still be the League if the rest of the League is conscious and capable of joining but chooses not to", etc etc, which muddies her ability to twist the prophecy to her own life-saving ends, as well.)

I mean, I guess that is kind of disrespectful? But only in the same sense that the fact that they guaranteed won't believe her is disrespectful to her, so as far as cultural chauvanism goes, I'm inclined to think it balances out. (Plus really, even if it didn't, she'd have a long, long way to go to match most of the other Leaguers for it.)

Date: 2010-12-08 03:57 am (UTC)
bluefall: Circe laughing like a loon (evil laugh)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
(Um. Sorry for co-opting your post, [personal profile] thebigapricot.)

Date: 2010-12-08 04:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] warpedhand
But the other way to interpret "the League dies" would be that no one would ever trust each other, or her, again, and so the League falls apart. Which would be what the Oracle herself wants, because all of the recent portrayals of the Amazons (yes, I know, but still) she's seen as at the very least compromising with an enemy. That's what I was talking about when I was talking about politics.

I think another part of my dislike actually stems from reading these boards. When most people here talk about the JLA story Babel, it's usually about what a dick Batman is. Here, Diana takes them all out with very little effort, and then expects them to simply accept that what she did was for their own good. And that's seen as a sign of strength here. And I really don't like that double standard.

As to the informed consent, I disagree with that because first of all, she doesn't even try to give her own input about the dragon. She doesn't say "Oh, we have texts that say...", or "Oh, our sages talk about how great warriors fell...", or even "Well the oracle said...". Of course, Batman would absolutely ignore the last one, but she doesn't even try to give her judgement on the situation, which would always be welcomed on the team. Second of all, She never gives them a chance to contribute before she decides the oracle is correct and they can't do anything. No "Hey, maybe my super-breath can counteract the flames" or, "I can create a construct of a castle/heaping pile of emeralds/whatever to lure the dragon", or "Super-speed some bridge cables around her jaws" (which wouldn't work because IIRC, fire came out the nostrils as well, but you get the idea) or, "Perhaps I can convince her treasure is elsewhere telepathically", although that wouldn't work, because of the whole fire thing. There's simply no contribution to or by her teammates

I think my basic gripe is that as soon as she hears the prophecy, it seems that for her, team is out the window. I realize she's an Amazon, but she's supposed to be more than that.

Date: 2010-12-08 12:46 am (UTC)
retro_nouveau: AARP Bruce (115)
From: [personal profile] retro_nouveau
So no physical weaknesses, we're all agreed? Obeying the whims of number of capricious individuals and adhering to an archaic, labyrinthine set of rules is a limitation, I suppose. Some lines in the sand she's not allowed to cross, I think she can live with that. I don't think Bruce can pull something out of the belt to turn it to his advantage without getting pulled in also (I'm picturing him on his knees kissing her boot now).

Date: 2010-12-08 09:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shadur
I'm not sure how using a Green Lantern ring brilliantly to save someone's life counts as damning yourself. Call me weak, but context?

Date: 2010-12-08 02:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shadur
Okay, that makes sense now. Thank you.

Incidentally, do you know if this has been collected, and if so in which trade? It looks pretty good.

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