Detective Comics #5

[superfangirl1]

After his battle with the Dollmaker, Batman is trying to keep peace in an increasingly restless Gotham City. With the flesh from Joker’s face hanging in the Gotham City Police Department, many people believe that Batman has killed the Joker. This causes a lot of anti-Batman and even pro-Joker sentiment.









Meanwhile, news reporter Charlotte Rivers investigating a story on Gotham’s newly opened Iceberg Casino, runs afoul of the club’s villainous owner.

Comments

[golden_orange]

"This causes a lot of anti-Batman and even pro-Joker sentiment."

... Fucking seriously?

Okay, the former I can deal, with but 'pro-Joker sentiment'? This is the same Joker as ever we're talking about, right? You know, the one who's by this point probably the most prolific serial-killing psychopathic mass-murderer in even the DCnU*'s history?

I freely admit I haven't this, and I'd never comment on the actual quality of a book without reading it, but based on this I honestly have to say; I hope that in practice this isn't as stupid as it sounds, because right now, it sounds pretty fucking stupid.

* I am, of course, assuming this wasn't changed in the reboot.

[icon_uk]

Not really stupid when you look around at the real world.

Consider how many neo-Nazi movements still exist, worshipping a man who masterminded REAL atrocities.

Or how much fan mail real serial killers get.

[leoboiko]

"We are the Joker" ← they lost me right there.

[sistermagpie]

I found it impossible to get into this story at all for this reason. It made no sense so me, it made me lose sympathy for Gotham. I just didn't buy it. It's more like it's realistic for *readers* to be pro-Joker because it's safe (and it seems like there's a trend to defend villains in superhero comics in general), but people in Gotham wouldn't, imo, say "we are the Joker." There might be people who thought he was cool because he was scary, but this makes them seem like they're protesting for their right to be cruelly murdered.

So yeah, I found it in practice just as stupid as it sounds here.

[eyz]

What?? What???? WHAT!!?

^Also, what he said above!

[damar148]

The Jokerz in Batman Beyond made sense given it was like 30-40 years since the Joker last was active so they were no different from Neo-Nazis.

But this, this is straight Charles Manson cultists and those people deserve to get smilexed.

[bewareofgeek]

More like Anonymous (clown masks) crossed with OWS, which is even STUPIDER.

[deepspaceartist]

Why doesn't Batman want to hurt those guys? I certainly do. It's the freaking Joker! The proper response to his death is not an angry protest, it is a heroes parade for whoever did it!

At least tell me there's a bigger protest just offpanel saying 'those guys in the clown getups are idiots!'

[icon_uk]

He doesn't want to hurt them because they ARE idiots. Very unsatisfying.

[thatnickguy]

Two things:

1) I agree with golden_orange. It's weird enough that people would actively support Joker in any way, but the sheer number of them is ridiculous. Not to mention that this is Gotham. I'm pretty sure almost everyone in Gotham at this point would be pissing their pants just hearing that Joker was out of Arkham. Even fellow criminals and even people that work for Joker are terrified of him.

Then again, this COULD lead to an interesting story that'll never happen: Joker becomes a leader of this cult.

2) Why the hell is Batman just ploughing through this crowd? Wouldn't he just go around them or over them? Since when has Batman decided to show his face to so many people or plod through a big crowd? Basically, since when is Batman stupid?

[jlbarnett]

hell, Nightwing has a clown who's normal costume is purple and he's terrified going int o Gotham.

[darkknightjrk]

"Why the hell is Batman just ploughing through this crowd? Wouldn't he just go around them or over them?"

The only way I can think of to make it work is the fact that it's a park so it'd be hard for him to go by rooftop without losing his mark in the crowd.

Even then, since I've been playing Arkham City almost every day since Christmas, my immediate response is for him to either use his zip line and cape glider or use a line launcher.

[chipsnopotatoes]

Why does Penguin have a car antenna on his head?

[icon_uk]

It's not a car antenna, it's an aerodynamic fin.

Actually, that's Lark standing with arms akimbo, with not-Zatanna's sleeve visible through the gap, but I admit it confused me too

[mullon]

This is dumb. This is like, Marvel Universe Manhattan dumb.

[chocochuy]

I know Gotham City isn't Metropolis but there's no reason for it to act like Marvel cities on a bad day.

Even though this issue felt silly, one good thing to mention is that Penguin's Casino Chip reminded me a lot of the Gentleman Ghost. Oh well.

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah, the Occupy Gotham thing just doesn't stand up to reason when looked at with any form of thought.

I will say this, though--the back-up that introduces a...new character...does have some interesting promise to it.

[espanolbot]

Not sure why people think that people starting a counterculture movement around the Joker is that suprising, I mean, the Joker in pretty much every continuity has something of a magnetic personality that attracts not just Harley, but loads of other people as well.

For example, in the Arkham Universe people tend to side with him because he offers high paying, high risk jobs that enable his henchmen to indulge in whatever violent impulses that happen to cross their minds. To them it seems likeany other high risk job, like being a soldier or working on a deepsea oil rig. Sure they might get killed by the Joker at any moment, but the perks more than make up for it.

In both the comics and the Dark Knight movies he seems to just draw crazy people to himself, with the explanation that his forceful personality is good at bending weaker ones to his will.

Heck, in the DCAU out of all the supervillains he seems to be the one who has the more consistant number of employees, even though it appears that the regular gangsters and the Penguin pay more.

I think that a more direct Manson comparision was shown in Starman with how the original Ragdoll evolved into a popculture icon after starting a deathcult. Though the case here seems to be more along the lines of Anonymous adopted Guy Fawkes as their symbol due to V for vendetta portraying him as an anarchist, when historically he was trying to destroy parliament and kill the king to reestablish a Catholic king in James I's place, exchanging one near absolute monarch for another.

[chocochuy]

Now that you mention it, Espanolbot, the numbers of these Joker Fanatics might strike us as quite stupid considering how many people have been maimed or murdered by the Joker but it's possible that they see the Joker as some kind of new corrupt Übermensch, somebody who defies order, lives by his beliefs and doesn't seem to be annoyed by all the mayhem he produces. One notable example of people loving the work of the Joker can be found on the fan film called "Patient J" where a psychologist, whose family was killed by the Joker, reveals that he's a fan of the Joker, that he sees him as the ultimate savior from the joke that's sanity and modern life. People can be crazy and maybe some Gothamites see Joker as their own Che Guevara.

[filthysize]

I think it's a case of conflating ideas. Daniel probably saw how many people in real life are worshipping, celebrating and dressing up as the Heath Ledger Joker and think that that counterculture attraction to idolize sinister figures like that would also exist in Gotham, without really considering the difference between idolizing fictional evil and real evil.

I can see people worshipping mass murderers (Che has already been mentioned), but there needs to be context where the horrific actions are backed with rhetoric that the public can get behind. Daniel's context (Batman kills Joker, OMG abuse of power) is just too weak to buy.

This is like a some take-off of Natural Born Killers, except NBK was a purposefully farcical satire on American media and pop culture. This seems to take itself seriously, which is embarrassing.

[darkknightjrk]

I think Che is a really good example of why this doesn't entirely work. Che was a psychopathic dictator, as many people who escaped from Cuba during his reign can tell you, but the kids who idolize him today are people who were born after he died, from a faraway place where they've never been, and mostly know him for his belief and a nice-sounding but ultimately deadly flawed political ideology.

Worshipping Joker like this doesn't work because it's too close and too soon. The closest I can think of to something like this was the "Malcolm was right" type stuff shortly after his death, but even then, Malcolm X, to my knowledge, never directly hurt anyone after he started getting into politics.

GET OFF MY LAWN

[jlroberson]

DC: continuing its long tradition of completely misunderstanding the nature of protest activism, and having Batman punch hippies.

Re: GET OFF MY LAWN

[espanolbot]

Eh, considering the Manson thing not all hippies are undeserving of their punches. Though the most direct Manson homage in the DCU is technically Ragdoll from his time in Starman, and he used bums instead of out of work dancers and out of work musicians.

[wizardru]

Where does the lower half of Batman's face go in that panel where he punches the protester? The lighting in the rest of the picture doesn't suggest that level of darkness.

As for the whole shot at the Occupy movement....why? It just seems unnecessary and off point. The only strawman I want to see Batman beat up uses fear gas.

[icon_uk]

The lighting in the rest of the picture doesn't suggest that level of darkness.

Batman has been bringing his own dramatic pool of shadow with him since 1939... :)

[the_phantom]

You must keep in mind that a some of people on the far-left are anti-death penalty even for people who can only be called "monsters". so if they think Batman has killed the Joker (who is clearly mentally ill) some people may act out this way.

[janegray]

Some people may act in any way imaginable. The key word here is "some."

I just can't ever, ever buy that a large number of people (Gothamites at that, people who are used to extremely high levels of violence and who, considering Joker's ludicrously high body count, most likely knew personally at least one person that was killed by him) would act out this way. No. Way.

Besides, one of the guys says "he's gonna get himself killed! Ah ah!" about Batman, so it's obviously not the death penality itself that bothers them.

[janegray]

What the everloving fuck ever.

I see Tony Daniel keeps justifying my decision to never read anything by him ever again after the horrible mess of Battle For The Cowl.

[jaybee3]

For a minute there with Batman punching the Joker protesters I thought I was reading a cut chapter from Batman: The Odyssey. Its just bizarre.

And why does Daniel go to the all the trouble of making a new super-reporter girlfriend for Bruce in "Charlotte Rivers" when he could have just re-used or re-introduced Vicki Vale? Especially since Daniel loves to give shout-outs to more pop culture Batman stories like the Long Halloween and the Batman movies. I'm guessing Charlotte Rivers is going to end up dead and DC wouldn't let him kill off Vicki.