flint_marko: (Spider-Man)
[personal profile] flint_marko posting in [community profile] scans_daily





Later, "Spidey" has all of his loved ones and friends go to his secret safe room to protect them from the escaped "Doctor Octopus."



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Date: 2012-12-28 11:53 pm (UTC)
zabilac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zabilac
So, let me get this straight...Peter and Mary Jane can't be together, but Ok in Peter's body and Mary Jane can?

Date: 2012-12-29 12:05 am (UTC)
jetblack927: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jetblack927
Yea, talk about giving what the people want and NOT giving what the people want at the same time...

Date: 2012-12-29 12:09 am (UTC)
zabilac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zabilac
It's brilliant and frustrating at the same time.

Date: 2012-12-30 01:32 am (UTC)
mortimerwclankitybritches: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mortimerwclankitybritches
At this point i'm utterly convinced that marvel have resorted to trolling fans out of pure spite.

Date: 2012-12-30 04:57 am (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
I want to hate this, but its such an epic troll I can't help but be in awe.

Date: 2012-12-31 12:59 am (UTC)
crinos: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crinos
I pointed this out in another forum, so here it is again:

If everything they did with OMD was planned out, because they were planning to have Octavius take over Peter's body, and they didn't want to deal with the idea of MJ sleeping with Otto in Pete's body, then, while I still would have hated OMD, I would understand the logic, and maybe appreciate them sparing us the skeeviness of this.

But they did OMD, the put Otto in Pete's body, AND NOW THEY'RE PUTTING MJ AND PETER/OCK TOGETHER AGAIN.

They went though all the trouble of splitting them up, make a scenario where we could easily avoid this skeevyness, and then they dive right into the skeevy.

This is like burning down your home for the insurance, and then calling up the insurance company and CANCELING YOUR POLICY.

This is beyond insanity.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violetclm.livejournal.com
Dear Humberto Ramos:
Please stop drawing.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:28 am (UTC)
lucky_gamble: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucky_gamble
+1

Date: 2012-12-29 12:39 am (UTC)
werehawk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] werehawk
+2

Date: 2012-12-29 01:28 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
THANK YOU! I don't dislike his art necessarily but if we're talking events or major stories...I really rather not have him on board for it.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:36 am (UTC)
filkertom: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filkertom
+14, at least

Date: 2012-12-29 02:38 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I'd rather he just take anatomy lessons. I believe a person's WHOLE head moves when they look up...not just their face, as in the above "I Love You" panel.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:56 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] maseiken
I don't normally like comments to this effect since I figure every arist has some fans and stylistic choices can't be accounted for.

Not so here. Stop, before our eyes are irreparably damaged.

Date: 2012-12-29 04:55 am (UTC)
jlroberson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jlroberson
This. Oh, god, such an unattractive sort of manga-knockoff style.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:24 pm (UTC)
servant_iskandar: (pic#5221025)
From: [personal profile] servant_iskandar
IMHO, I'd rather not drag a whole narrative - with very diverse authors and styles - into this. Just my two cents.

Instead, I believe it is enough to say that Ramos' work in the pages being shown here is far from his best, or even his average: see the 'love' panel, above. That kinda -hurts-.

Date: 2012-12-29 11:30 pm (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
But... Impulse!

(Ramos was really single-handedly responsible for making Bart Allen visually unique.)

Date: 2012-12-30 03:03 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Eh. I have far less ire for him than for Liefeld. At least Ramos can nail basic anatomy proportions (within his own style) and keep fairly consistent, unlike some people still getting paid industry pro wages.

Date: 2012-12-30 01:47 pm (UTC)
servant_iskandar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] servant_iskandar
Indeed.

Problem is, IMHO, that he's less consistent than usual in these panels.

For a comparison, see the final pages in the same issue (the "Otto going through Peter's memories" scene comes to mind, among others), which come off a whole lot better in my eyes.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:08 am (UTC)
thanekos: Kouhei " Principal Garren " Hayami, the Libra Zodiarts, is bugged. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
" Another victory for the Master Planner.

.. I must get her to call me that in bed. "

Date: 2012-12-29 01:32 pm (UTC)
servant_iskandar: (pic#5217324)
From: [personal profile] servant_iskandar
I think Slott's actually taking potshots at Otto's ego: note how he is bragging... with himself about his utter "defeat" of Parker. A very Ock thing to do.
This is, after all, before their final confrontation and the "Superior" oath; though Otto going after MJ is clearly a can of worms waiting to be open, as others are pointing throughout the thread.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kevinroc
The very serious question going on about this is (and I wish I could offer a trigger warning on this post): If MJ sleeps with Otto thinking he's Peter, is that rape?

Because this raises all sorts of issues that I don't think Marvel can answer. The closest I can think of them doing on the subject was when the Skrull posing as Hank Pym got Tigra pregnant and Marvel's response to the whole thing was basically to ignore that fraudulent activity had taken place.

(I live in California, which has a "Rape by Fraud" law on the books. Which is exactly what it sounds like. Where the perpetrator gains the victim's consent through deception or fraudulent actions. Taking over the body of another person and pretending to be that person would definitely fall under that definition.)

Date: 2012-12-29 12:26 am (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
I'm pretty sure it would be rape by fraud. And you'd think that Marvel, fresh off of getting slammed with complaints when they did basically this thing with the Chameleon, would know better than to open this can of worms.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:40 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kevinroc
I don't think MJ will actually sleep with Otto. But I could be wrong.

But I totally do agree with erring on the side of caution with issues like this.

(And I do think it would be in exceptionally poor taste to have this be the reason MJ leaves the title again, not even being able to stand seeing Peter's face because of what happened, when Peter makes his return should they go down that road.)

Date: 2012-12-29 11:32 pm (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
You are assuming this isn't intentionally poking the bear, like so, so much of Superior Spider-Man appears to be.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:30 am (UTC)
zabilac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zabilac
I think so, Ok is doing the "Rape by Fraud", you just mentioned.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:32 am (UTC)
book_of_daniel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] book_of_daniel
Is it rape? Honestly I don't know and I'm probably a poor judge. I'll leave wiser heads to argue the point. Is it gross, creepy, and just plain, flat out, freaking nasty? Oh hell yeah and it's nothing I'd want to read about in a SpiderMan book. I enjoy books with darker, adult, sexual themes on occasion but Spider Man has never been one of them.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:32 am (UTC)
dejadrew: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dejadrew
Yes. Rape is sexual activity without consent. If you consent to one sexual activity (sex with Joe) and you are tricked into engaging in another sexual activity to which you did not consent (sex with Bob), then that is rape. In this specific instance, Rape by Fraud or Rape by Deception, depending on the jurisdiction.

Laws governing it are still a little shaky; this one just doesn't come up very often. In real life, body swapping and evil duplicates are somewhat scarce. However, identical twins and siblings who are not identical but close enough to pass in dim light occasionally do occur. So for a case like this to happen and end up in court, you need to have a situation where someone looks/sounds enough like someone else to fool the victim, is enough of an evil asshole to take advantage of that fact, but somehow have the victim realize during or after that it was someone else.

It HAS happened from time to time; unfortunately, the law often wasn't ready to deal with that kind of situation (archaic rape laws requiring use of force as part of the definition, say) and the guy walked.

Date: 2012-12-30 01:20 am (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
This. This is why I dislike that one episode of Friends where Phoebe starts dating her twin sister Ursula's ex, and when Phoebe's at work Ursula comes to his apartment, pretends to be Phoebe, and sleeps with him in order to ruin their relationship before it can start. There's so much wrong with it there, and so much more wrong here.

Date: 2012-12-29 10:14 pm (UTC)
beoweasel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beoweasel
Is it rape? Honestly I don't know and I'm probably a poor judge.

Yes, yes it is. Mary Jane is only consenting because she thinks she'd be sleeping with Peter, however, if shew knew it was Ock in Pete's skull, you'd be damn sure she'd want nothing to do with him.

So yes, this is very much rape.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:59 am (UTC)
wake_the_dragon: (history of jason)
From: [personal profile] wake_the_dragon
Yeah, this is definitely rape by fraud.

Date: 2012-12-29 06:29 am (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
But is it really? In Chameleon's case, he was just an impersonator; in this case, it really is Peter, at least in (some) mind and body, if not in soul.

Date: 2012-12-29 07:05 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
But she's not consenting to have sex with Doctor Octopus, whose mind is predominately in control of the situation.

Date: 2012-12-29 08:55 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yes, that really would be rape. The Superior Dr. Spiderpus still identifies as Otto Octavius. Just because he shares the memories of Peter Parker doesn't make him Peter Parker.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:12 pm (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Default)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
This. I'm not sure why there are so many questions surrounding this. If MJ had full knowledge of the situation, would she give consent? No. If Ock were to deliberately withhold information that he knows would affect her willingness to consent, then it would be rape. Legally? Probably. Morally? Most definitely.

Date: 2012-12-29 04:40 pm (UTC)
wake_the_dragon: (eleven and clara)
From: [personal profile] wake_the_dragon
Exactly.

Date: 2012-12-29 08:09 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
Here's a hypothetical:

What if he forgets he's Otto but still has Otto's personality?

Like, he has "episodes" where he forgets the mindswap even happened and he thinks he's Peter.

And then he wakes up in bed with MJ remembering that he's Otto, wondering what happened?

I think one point we'll see addressed is that even if he forgets he's Otto and has all of Peter's memories, he still won't BE Peter.

And by the end of this, I suspect we'll see Peter vs. a Superior Spider-man who no longer even remembers being Doc Ock but still isn't a good person, even with Peter's memories and none of Ock's.

Date: 2012-12-31 04:14 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] donnblake
It would be rape by fraud, but here's an interesting point- I've never, not ever, seen anyone raise the same question about Mystique.

Date: 2012-12-31 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shadur
I think we had this discussion back when it was Chameleon doing it to Peter's roommate during Brand New Day and the answer was "Yes it was"

Date: 2012-12-29 12:51 am (UTC)
team_mummy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] team_mummy
MJ's facial contortions are off the charts, ugh! Also; he's seeing MJ again? I dunno anymore.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:51 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yessss, this is the best part of the whole mind-switch idea. How Peter Parker's friends and loved ones will completely fail to realize Ock isn't actually Peter. Or, in the case of Mary Jane, how they sort of realize but get turned on by that sort of thing.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:40 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
"Ewwww, this is the worst part of the whole mind-switch idea."

Fixed that for you.

Date: 2012-12-30 05:31 pm (UTC)
gamerguy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gamerguy
I keep seeing people make this comment, and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Unlike when this sort of thing normally happens (and only in comics will I ever be able to type THAT sentence) Ock has access to all of Peter's memories. When he tells MJ her favorite things, well, only Peter is going to know things like that. There isn't going to be a case of:

"This is just like our trip to London."
"Ah yes, London, I loved it there."
"Fiend! We've never been to London! Who are you, really?!"

That ain't happening here. Most of his miscues are for the reader; the people around him are not generally going to know them or notice. Regardless of how cutesy meta writers like to get these days, most of the non-superhero cast is never going to notice anything wrong with him. They may never notice because he can placate them with intimate details only Peter could ever know.

Date: 2012-12-31 07:21 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
That's not true. When Otto Spiderpus directly insults Mary Jane in the above scans, calling her useless, that's not a cue for the reader. That's him directly interacting with the other characters in a radically different way than Peter Parker would. Ock isn't even trying to mimic Peter Parker's personality, he's openly acting scornful and egotistic and, well, superior.

Maybe their first instinct won't be to think that it's some impersonator (or maybe it should be, this is the sort of thing that has happened before), but it would require an astounding degree of obliviousness on their part to realize, whoa, Peter's acting really differently!

Date: 2012-12-31 07:57 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Haha, good point. I remember when just the initial spoilers had leaked, and some people were speculating that maybe the mind switch had happened much earlier on, like in Ends of the Earth, and all this time it had been Dr. Octopus in his body all along and that's why Spider-man was acting so violent and weird.

Nope!

Date: 2012-12-29 12:58 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Just beyond scummy. I give so leeway in regards to that since at this point in the issue Ock is actually the villain, but moving into the ongoing series I really hope that now that he's gotten all of Peter's guilt and responsibility downloaded into him he'll be hesitant to pursue a relationship with MJ due to realizing how scummy it would be.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:02 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Nah, he's not even particularly guilty about killing Peter Parker to begin with, he'll probably be fine with it.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:08 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
We can only hope that as the series goes forward he becomes more effected by Peter's mind-stuff. I mean, Marvel should have learned from the Chameleon thing, and given the uproar online they'll hopefully be smart enough to realize that they can't publish a comic where the "hero" is pretty definitely a rapist. If they do though, I really hope they catch hell, because that shit would be unacceptable.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:19 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Well you'd think so, but right above we have scans where Doc Ock snaps at Mary Jane and calls her useless, and her response is to blurt out that she still loves him, so....

Date: 2012-12-29 01:02 am (UTC)
wake_the_dragon: (eleven and clara)
From: [personal profile] wake_the_dragon
Bullshit. I don't believe that MJ would be fooled by Otto in Peter's body.

Also, I'm shocked Marvel would go down this road again. After the controversy that followed the subplot with the Chameleon, I thought they would have learned from that mistake. I obviously gave them too much credit.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:43 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Yes. Exactly. No matter what's gone on, no matter what else, how can Mary Jane listen to the things coming out of "Peter's" mouth and not think something is wrong?

Just because Doctor Octopus has access to all of Peter's experiences, memories, feelings, and so on, he's still, for all intents and purposes, a stranger in the body. He's not a trained actor or impersonator - he's not Mysterio or Chameleon to hop into someone's life and take it over. He's not going to act the same, move the same, or talk the same, and how can Mary Jane or Aunt May or any of the dozens of heroes who've worked with Peter not realize that something is wrong?

I'm reading this dialogue, and it's just so far from what Peter would say, what he's ever said, that it should be raising red flags in anyone who's known him for any amount of time... especially a ex-girlfriend/ex-fiancee/best friend who's slept with him and known him intimately.

ESPECIALLY someone who knows he's a super-hero. ESPECIALLY someone who as good as lives in a world with clones, doppelgangers, time travelers, alternate dimensional counterparts, Life Model Decoys.

I... I'm not opposed to the idea in general, but if MJ, of all people, doesn't suspect something is up from the way Peter talks, acts, behaves, responds - hell, how he KISSES - then I'll be sorely disappointed.

Tell me that Daredevil won't pick up changes in body language/heartbeat/tones.
Tell me that Logan won't sense something's off.

The only way this can seriously work long term is if a lot of people are extremely stupid, or Otto Octavius is a much better actor than we ever imagined.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:37 am (UTC)
dejadrew: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dejadrew
Tell me that Daredevil won't pick up changes in body language/heartbeat/tones.
Tell me that Logan won't sense something's off.


Tell me freaking AUNT MAY won't slip ambien into his oatmeal raisin cookies. Because she does that.

Date: 2012-12-29 06:25 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Yeah, this is why I think this can't really work as a status quo without either making huge changes to the book, such as jettisoning the entire supporting cast, or making everyone around Ock an idiot. Any one of Peter's supporting cast members would notice something's up with him, not to mention the other superheroes who know Spidey's secret identity and have dealt with this kind of caper in the past.
This could have worked back when Spidey was still playing Public Enemy in the early years and rarely teamed up with other heroes, but at this point he's on multiple teams and is good friends with some of these people, they would absolutely catch on. And if the Avengers or the FF or whomever realizes what's going on then this whole thing falls apart, because they would have to step in. Not only is Ock a fugitive from justice and a grade a asshole, but he's masquerading as their friend and teammate. To not do something about it, be that trying to bring Peter back or to even just throwing Ock in prison where he belongs, would be morally reprehensible, and this storyline would have damaged even more characters than it already has.

Date: 2012-12-30 12:12 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
Considering how quickly she figured it out when she realized that it was Chameleon doing it.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:48 am (UTC)
stillanerd: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stillanerd
Regarding my thoughts about this particular scene--It’s bad enough that Doc Ock throughout “Dying Wish” has been taking advantage of MJ’s love for Peter to try and have sex with her, but for him to successfully seduce MJ like this is pretty sickening. Granted, there’s no intercourse has taken place between them as of yet, but the possibility that MJ is in danger of becoming a victim of rape by deception is the Sword of Damocles looming over the new status quo. Because anyone with any ounce of common sense knows that if MJ knew “Peter“ was really Doc Ock, she wouldn’t reciprocating any of his advances towards her, let alone be anywhere in the same room with him. For someone who even Slott has insisted is “the most important person in Spider-Man’s life,” this is a huge disservice to her character and towards fans of her and Peter’s relationship.

This also echoes a controversial subplot by Fred Van Lente from three years ago6, where the Chameleon, also disguised as Peter, made advances on Peter’s then roommate, Michele Gonzeles, which resulted in what appeared to be them about to engage in sex on their kitchen floor (though Marvel clarified they were just “swapping spit.”) Now with “Spider-Man” and Mary Jane “newfound romance,” Marvel’s on the verge of venturing into the same treacherous waters only a thousand times more turbulent and destructive. And DC and Marvel wonder why they still have trouble courting female readers.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:40 am (UTC)
filkertom: (whodoyouthink)
From: [personal profile] filkertom
Once again, I seriously have to wonder who they think wants to read stuff like this.

Or look at it. I think MJ grew a cheekbone in there.

And, yeah, there is no way MJ would not notice that Peter's speech pattern is, oh, completely off.

Sigh.

Date: 2012-12-29 02:42 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Yep, It's happened. Dan Slott's has completely given up on any attempt to get people to like Spider-Man. His entire writing ethos is now geared entirely on pissing people off. He must have resigned himself to it long ago...how sad.

Date: 2012-12-29 11:37 pm (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Honestly, I look forward to Slott moving on from Spidey. Remember when he wrote things that were *fun*?

Date: 2012-12-31 06:25 am (UTC)
nefrekeptah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nefrekeptah
He never stopped writing things that were fun. And this looks very well-written and I'm dying to see what happens next.

Date: 2012-12-31 09:36 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Not exactly what I meant, but close enough. Hell, Slott did dark before his Spider-Man run, like in The Initiative. But you can do dark, grim even, and still have a comic be fun to read. I don't know if it's the pressure of writing a flagship title or what, but Slott and Spider-Man are just not working together for me at all. I want to get them away from each other for their own good, it's like they're in a mutually destructive relationship.

Date: 2012-12-29 03:13 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Wow, this is skeezy. It's pretty much Gwen Stacy/Osbourne (which to be fair was a flashback in Peter's mind) and Michelle/Chameleon ramped up to ten. Doing it to MJ, who pre-OMD could tell when Peter wasn't being "Peter", makes it worse (and wasn't it Slott writing her as being the biggest Carlie Cooper supporter ever just a few months ago?).

With the DCnU being so unreadable (IMO at least) I've been taking a look at Marvel and like what I see: Journey Into Mystery with Kid Loki and now Sif, Captain Marvel, Avengers, Fantastic Four, good books and yet with their flagship character they give us THIS? Why?

Also, the whole MJ saying "Face it, Tiger" line to Peter being a special thing less weighty and less "special" when Slott himself had MJ using the same exact line to the obnoxious Bobby Carr as a term of endearment post-OMD.

Date: 2012-12-29 04:37 am (UTC)
gunny: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gunny
"Trite" who says that?!? oh, Doc Ok, that's who. I'm delighted that Peter's sudden change in vernacular has escaped EVERYONE'S attention, particularly those he's closest to and loved by. He's acting exactly like Peter Parker. Really.

Date: 2012-12-29 04:51 am (UTC)
philippos42: zat's bunny (dung)
From: [personal profile] philippos42
When it got to "another victory for the Master Planner" I started reaching toward the screen to throttle Ock.

This is so disgusting.

What is with these comic companies trying to troll readers?

Date: 2012-12-29 04:54 am (UTC)
jlroberson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jlroberson
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'm glad I've never been a Spider-fan because it seems like the most punishing, thankless kind of fandom one can be cursed to. They certainly seem to do everything they can to drive readers away.

Date: 2012-12-29 05:29 am (UTC)
sianmink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sianmink
Who else thinks this is going to get really awkward when Ock's old crush on Aunt May comes back up?

Date: 2012-12-29 07:04 am (UTC)
selke: (Default)
From: [personal profile] selke
Love triangle!

Date: 2012-12-29 05:00 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Spidey & MJ)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Well he still views May as that "poor, sweet woman" and punches off Scorpion's jaw (as Spider-Man) when Scorpion threatens May, so you never know...

Date: 2012-12-29 07:02 am (UTC)
thefiretonight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thefiretonight
Forever creeped out by Ock-Spidey.

Date: 2012-12-29 07:06 am (UTC)
selke: (Default)
From: [personal profile] selke
I think I'm one of the rare ones who actually LIKES Ramos's art (except for the last page. That's a new level of awful.)

This is just... creepy. Like I need hand sanitizer creepy.

Date: 2012-12-29 07:58 am (UTC)
suzene: (Default)
From: [personal profile] suzene
So, according to Stephen Wacker, there is no rape implied here, and people who bring up concerns about it are only seeing what they want to see and treating the subject lightly by even suggesting the possibility. (Source)

So I guess the question is, what the heck are we supposed to be seeing, then? What is the mood Slott is supposed to be putting across? Are we supposed to be happy? Are we supposed to be aroused? Are we supposed to be getting the warm fuzzies? No. We're supposed to be angry and skeeved because this is creepy as fuck. It involves the violation of two people, and Slott and Wacker are perfectly aware that's where the tension in this scene comes from. At the very least, it's sexual assault, and if there's a FTB with all that such usually entails, then yes, it's rape.

This isn't people seeing what they want to see, it's them seeing what the writer and editor wanted them to see, and I think it's pretty damned disgusting that the people involved in putting this out for public consumption are at such a remove that they're willing to play rape and sexual assault for dramatic tension, but squirm away from actually naming them for what they are. As mentioned above, it's the Chameleon business all over again, with yet another round of the people who put these comics out showing their cluelessness and reluctance to accept any level of responsibility or criticism with regards to their choices. I'd say it's a shame that they're doing this while working with a character whose core is all about responsibility, but between OMD, Alpha, and the recent bouts of torture, I'm pretty sure they haven't been writing that character for a while anyway.
Edited Date: 2012-12-29 10:02 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-29 06:43 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Wacker has really reacted to this in the worst way possible. I think Wacker either legitimately doesn't see any basis for the concerns people are raising, or he knows that they're not actually going to go in that direction, so he's upset that people are focusing on that angle, and either way that could make people upset. Really though, when you've got a bunch of people pointing out that something is, if not rape, at the very least rape-adjacent, it's time to step back and reevaluate things. Maybe talk to some people, rethink where the storyline is heading, consider fan concerns for once, and make a proper statement addressing those concerns instead of dismissing them.
And I really don't like the implication that comics should't be held to the same standards that other mediums are when it comes to this stuff. This shit wouldn't fly on network TV and it shouldn't fly in a comic like Spider-Man.
I honestly, genuinely hope that if they go forward with an MJ/Ock romance (which I actually think is somewhat doubtful) that Marvel gets in trouble big time. Like advocacy groups and media outlets just come down on them. I'd relish seeing Marvel get called on the creepy misogyny that pervades the medium.

Date: 2012-12-29 11:32 am (UTC)
kusonaga: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kusonaga
Is this skeevy? Yes. Is this a pretty typical comic book trope, where bad guy in good guy body kisses with good guy's girlfriend? Yes. Are they going to have sex? I hope not and I expect not. I figure Slott's got enough sense to not go there. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, huh?

Date: 2012-12-29 11:51 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
I don't think it's that typical a trope? I can't name another example of it off the top of my head.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:08 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
It's happened quite a bit, be it an imposter or mind takeover, or body switch... it's a pretty used trope. Y'know, the switcheroo, freaky friday type storyline.

Date: 2012-12-29 12:43 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Like when? The only thing coming to mind is the Justice League cartoon, and that had Flash having sex with Lex Luthor's girlfriend(?).

I actually went to tvtropes to find some more examples and most of the mistaken romantic identity thing involve shapeshifters or disguises and are pretty explicitly rapey.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:46 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Are you asking if mind switching is a trope, or if mind switching with the possibility of rape is a trope?

Because the former is a trope, the latter is just whatever direction the writer wants to take that trope in.

Date: 2012-12-29 01:52 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
I'm asking about what kusonaga said specifically:

"Is this a pretty typical comic book trope, where bad guy in good guy body kisses with good guy's girlfriend? Yes."

I can't really think of any examples like that, I guess because it's such a creepy scenario that most people avoid it.

Date: 2012-12-29 04:17 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Honestly, pretty much all the examples I can think of are back in the Silver Age, and generally didn't go much beyond kissing the good guy's girlfriend (and often being revealed thereby). Other than that, all I can recall is the Chameleon thing.

Date: 2012-12-30 08:25 am (UTC)
kusonaga: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kusonaga
Yeah, that's what I was going for. It's a very Silver Age comic booky thing to me, the mindswitch and (for now) rather chaste deception. Can it veer into awful territory, sure, but let's wait and see.

Date: 2012-12-30 09:39 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. First, this isn't a chaste deception. MJ rips Peter's shirt open, and then Peter Octavius gets upset that she doesn't continue. It's pretty obvious where it's going right there.

Second, those kinds of Silver Age stories mostly lasted for the span of a single issue, and were goofy one-shots that didn't take their premises that seriously. That's why you could get away with things like Superman forcing Jimmy Olsen to marry a gorilla; no one would do an arc about that in modern-day comics. And this Superior Spiderpus thing is going to be an extended arc with its own new title and everything.

Third, Silver Age stories could be really sexist and creepy in their own right, so that's no defense.
steverodgers5: (Default)
From: [personal profile] steverodgers5
What I mean is, does anyone remember the episode of Buffy where Faith in Buffy's body slept with Buffy's then boyfriend Riley?

Afterwards Buffy felt betrayed that her boyfriend hadn't been able to see through the deception. And to be fair he did notice her acting a bit different, but seemingly just assumed she was just being in the mood to be more forward for a change.

I think that is quite realistic. Because if your boyfriend/girlfriend is acting differently, you're probably more inclined to write it off as a bizarre mood swing, rather than them being someone else, and probably likely to go along with it just hoping that they'll be more back to their usual self in the morning or whatever.

I do think though, that the longer Ock is in Pete's body, the less likely this should be to occur, given as some have pointed out above his old speech patterns are likely to show up quite often, and after a while MJ would click on to knowing that something was very wrong. But in the above example or the next issue or two, I'm sorry to say that if Ock decides to go through with it, it's likely that MJ would. Because if she's just wanting to believe that she and Pete could get back together, then she'll see what she wants to see, and so she would probably be more inclined to overlook it in the short term, but much less so the longer this goes on..

Urgh! I hate this whole topic. As the whole storyline disgusts me. (Which is annoying because up until this I was really enjoying Slott's Spidey..) But no. I can see how the worst could happen here. But that doesn't mean I want a writer creating the circumstances where it can..

Date: 2012-12-30 01:37 am (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
Not girlfriend, but something similar happened a very long time ago, back when Captain Britain till had his own comic, they had a storyline where he was attacked and replaced by an evil alternate universe version of himself. Said alternate universe version of himself then tried this with his sister, Betsy/Psylocke,back when she had her original body, both her eyes, and didn't do much fighting. Being that she was his sister, not his girlfriend, she refused and ended up killing him when he tried to force himself on her.

To make things all the more confusing and weird, IIRC, during the time this was happening, Brian was in the evil guy's universe, being tortured and used by a villainess as her sex slave. Yeah, it was a very rape filled story. Though, its kinda disturbing to know that its not the only time Brian as raped, and strangely, every time it happened he took it surprisingly well.

Date: 2012-12-29 05:05 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Spidey & MJ)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
FWIW Dan Slott is aware of the controversy about this and he said it will be dealt with in the Superior so I don't think he'll do what Van Lente did. Plus if his intentions are to make Ock a sympathetic antihero I don't think he'll have him rape Spidey's wife.

Date: 2012-12-29 06:03 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I think that as Peter's guilt trip really takes hold we'll see Ock become reluctant to take advantage of MJ and probably have to do the old "drive her away to protect her" ploy that we've seen so many times. It wouldn't be particularly interesting, but it's way more likely than Marvel thinking that they can get away with replacing their flagship everyman character with a remorseless murder and rapist.

Date: 2012-12-30 10:59 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
My favorite take (which I've been pondering) is that Otto never considered this could result in sex and as soon as he realizes that's a possibility, runs screaming away from Mary Jane.

Basically, he'll realize he's hitting on her for Peter's benefit as part of taking over Peter's life and Peter's not there to watch.

The whole point may be that he didn't even consider physical intimacy and once he realizes it's possible, he won't do it. Heck, we already have the detail that, with May, he wanted to wait until marriage and she pressured Otto into considering sex outside of marriage.

There are a couple of ways to go from there, relationship-wise.

The controversial one would be Otto realizing that he's gay. (Which is the worst possible time, when you're in somebody else's body.)

The less controversial one being hooking up with somebody who doesn't know Peter and doesn't know who he is.

Date: 2012-12-30 01:40 am (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
Anyone else notice that in the first panel he's staring at her with murder face?

The art is pretty bad in general, but it doubles for making things incredibly creepy.

Date: 2012-12-30 04:36 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
So the consensus from all corners seems to be that MJ/Ock would almost certainly count as rape, but what about people other than MJ? Like hypothetically, what if Spider-Ock got a new love interest? The person might not think Ock that is Peter, at least in the sense that they might not have had a pre-existing relationship with Peter, but I doubt they'd be involved with Ock if they knew he was a decrepit murderer riding around in a stolen body.
And what about Peter? It's his body and he's certainly not consenting, so I feel like it would also be major violation to him. Though I seriously doubt that that issue would ever be dealt with after Peter comes back, given how reluctant comics seem to deal with the idea of male rape in any serious way.
The more I think about it the more I come to realize that Marvel couldn't have Spider-Ock involved in any sort of romance without it being massively unpleasant and creepy if anyone stopped to consider it for more than a second.
Edited Date: 2012-12-30 05:08 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-30 11:05 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
Well, a couple of things.

People's knowledge of eachother is always incomplete. Posing as Peter is different than simply not admitting he's killed people. By that standard, all sex is rape unless you list dealbreakers and turnoffs first.

And what if it's someone who actively doesn't want to know who he is?

I could see a Black Cat-type fling coming out of this. Particularly if she knows he isn't Peter and doesn't want to know who he is or something like that. Maybe if she knew he was somebody else in Peter's body, for example, and that Peter wasn't coming back.

I don't think many people could be a confidante for Otto here (and he may need one) but Felicia strikes me as the one person who, while she might be initially upset, would deal with him if he starts actually reforming and would tell him she didn't want to know his past.

Of course, that would require a scenario where she realizes it's a new Spider-man and nobody else does.

Date: 2012-12-30 11:16 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Yeah, I think it would be more like just lying about one's past for sex. Perhaps a little skeevy, but not rape. A new love interest would probably be the best choice for that reason, and additionally it would make story sense, as Otto probably has no inclination to continue living Peter's life, he'll want to go out an make his own way.
I think Felicia could definitely work as a love interest as you outlined, but it'd still take Ock pulling off some pretty mind blowing acts of heroism beforehand for her first instinct to be hearing him out rather than running to the Avengers or something. After all Ock has been a terrible personal historically, so she'd be crazy to trust him right away.
I'm still pretty uncomfortable with the idea of Ock doing all this in Peter's body though, I'd kind of prefer it if he was just more or less asexual, as unlikely as that is.

Date: 2012-12-30 06:57 pm (UTC)
theepicbeyond: (Default)
From: [personal profile] theepicbeyond
As to whether or not this is rape, the question to ask is does this feel icky or wrong. If the answer to one is yes the answer to the other usually is yes too.

Did anyone out there watch the similar storyline when it played out in fringe? The main heroine Olivia Dunham was replaced by her doppelganger from a parallel universe for spy purposes. To get what she needed she seduced Peter Bishop who had an ongoing will they wont they genuine love budding with the original Olivia. When it was revealed that the woman he had been sleeping with was fake it left all parties involved feeling violated and skeeved out. Even the doppleganger spy. It was supposed to make the audience feel weird and it did.

To be honest it doesn't surprise me that Ock would have sex on his mind. He's always been a fat nerd, and has spent the better part of the last year dying. Now he's a handsome young superhero. A better way for this scenario to play out would start off with him trying to seduce MJ, and then stop himself thinking about the unfortunate implications of rape by fraud. Like in Fringe this type of story is meant to make you feel uncomfortable. Maybe Ock well feel as bad as us the audience and say something to the effect that "Petty carnal lust is beneath The Master Planner. I am a Superior spider-man I dont need to rely on this fraud." As best as i can remember Ock's never been a lecherous old man. We've seen 100 "Villain in the heroes place causes havok" stories. I think the interesting thing with the Spidey-Ock story would be seeing if being a hero could semi redeem Doc Ock. Maybe realizing how much of a ass he's being would start Ock down a better path.

Date: 2012-12-31 12:52 am (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: It's an edition of the Daily Bugle newspaper, with the headline EVERYTHING AWFUL Oh God Somebody Do Something (everything awful)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
The art is gross and the story is ultra-gross. Why must you do this to MJ Marvel?
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