[identity profile] richardak.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
When I first posted scans showing that Huntress could out-stealth Batman, [profile] unknownscribler  commented that Huntress probably wouldn't "be consistantly able to out stealth the bat, but I think it's good that she can beat him at his own game every so often." I recently discovered, thanks in no small part to [personal profile] kingrockwell , yet another example of Huntress getting the drop on Batman:

I think she took that well. But in all seriousness, after the third time one character has managed to pretty thoroughly out-stealth the other, I think it might be reasonable to conclude that it's not a fluke.  I also love this because it showcases Huntress' violent temper.

Date: 2009-06-18 12:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khaosworks.insanejournal.com
Cut tag! For pete's sake, cut tag!

Date: 2009-06-18 12:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khaosworks.insanejournal.com
Sorry for snapping. It's just that I've been seeing it a bit too often these past few days and it's getting to me. Especially when some people (not you) promise to remedy it but somehow it's there there without the cut.

Date: 2009-06-18 12:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crinosg.insanejournal.com
I just love how Bane is standing there with his arms folded like "yeah, he wants me."

Date: 2009-06-18 02:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thosefew.insanejournal.com
I think it's more of a "See, that's what you get for nitpicking my skull injury hypothesis."

Date: 2009-07-16 06:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] psychop_rex.insanejournal.com
Personally, I read it more as 'oh, these silly Bat-Gringos and their fights. I'll just stand and watch, and wish I had popcorn."

Date: 2009-06-18 12:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darkknightjrk.insanejournal.com
Context? Why is Batman getting help from Bane?

Date: 2009-06-18 01:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sir_razorback.insanejournal.com
Maybe he just needed a good chiropractor.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:10 am (UTC)

Date: 2009-06-18 01:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aaron_bourque.insanejournal.com
Because he thought Bane's illegitimate father might be Thomas Wayne.

Turns out, it was actually King Snake.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] octopussoir.insanejournal.com
That would've been a sitcom for the ages. "My Evil Spine-breaking Lucho Libre Half-brother!"

Date: 2009-07-16 06:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] psychop_rex.insanejournal.com
Actually, I think it would've been pretty damn cool if Bane had stuck around as one of the Bats. I mean, if crooks weren't running when there was just Batman and his crew, they'd be running like hell if there was Batman, his crew and BANE. If I was a crook and saw Batman running at me, I'd panic; if I saw him AND a hugely-muscled behemoth in a faceless mask running at me, I'm pretty sure I'd soil myself. You want intimidating, you can't get much more so than Bane.

Date: 2009-06-18 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sherkahn.insanejournal.com
This was during the time that Bane was looking for his papa, and about the time that he was born on Santa Prisca Dr. Thomas Wayne was also on the island, one of only 4 "white" men from whom some of Bane's genetics could come from.

One was already ruled out, since Bane had killed him himself to find out who his mother was.

Date: 2009-06-18 05:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unknownscribler.insanejournal.com
What's on the obviously missing page?

Date: 2009-06-18 12:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unknownscribler.insanejournal.com
narration / dialog boxes suggest otherwise, that there's something between righteous indignation and arsekicking fury

Date: 2009-06-18 12:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unknownscribler.insanejournal.com
As does the art -- that's a standing kick, not a drop kick from above.

Date: 2009-06-18 05:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chengar.insanejournal.com
Batman really needs to get some lessons from Oracle about how to handle Huntress when she's pissed off.

Date: 2009-06-18 06:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] salamangkiero.insanejournal.com
I think it would be hard to use manlove on her, in that case, har!

Date: 2009-06-18 11:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluefall.insanejournal.com
Well, in fairness, Babs was nearly as bad as Bruce about Hel for a long time. It wasn't until she owed Helena Dinah's life - a debt Babs takes very seriously - that she took the time to actually try to figure the woman out and learn how to interact with her. They had a great deal of mutual antagonism of their own before that point.

Huh. You know, we haven't seen Bruce and Hel interact much since Dinah and Babs made him be nice to her. I wonder if he was just playing along to get them off his back, or if he's genuinely revised his opinion of her?

Date: 2009-06-18 07:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chengar.insanejournal.com
You're right about it taking quite a while for Babs to get along with Helena; her brief fling with Nightwing was definately a major sore with Babs for a long time.

Some new Bruce and Helena interaction could be interesting given the fact that they should be getting along better thanks to Babs and Dinah, but I've got a bad feeling that if it's not Simone or another BoP author writing them they'll just ignore the character development and snap back to the pre-BoP status quo.

Date: 2009-06-18 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluefall.insanejournal.com
her brief fling with Nightwing was definately a major sore with Babs for a long time.

Well, that, and the whole "willing to kill people" thing (Babs knows about Helena's relationship to Cassamento, there's no way she hasn't connected the dots about his death), and the "I'll just be wearing your old costume and name without your permission" during No Man's Land (which was really more Bruce's betrayal than Helena's, because Helena had no way of knowing, but that didn't make it hurt less), and the "let me just raid your tower because we know you're the nerve center of the Blue Boys" business (even if she did turn around and fight Pettit in the end, it was really not Helena's finest or most heroic moment).

I sometimes wonder if the Helena-Babs relationship doesn't say more than it first appears about the Tim-Babs relationship, because Babs tolerated a lot more from Helena, pre-Hel-as-Bird, than she has from pretty much anyone else who isn't Bruce - particularly, things that put her father in danger - and yet not only basically left her alone, but even helped her on occasion, generally at Tim's instigation. His good word must mean a hell of a lot to her.

I've got a bad feeling that if it's not Simone or another BoP author writing them [...]

This is a concern I have not just about Bruce-Helena but about Helena in general. She's too grey a character for a lot of writers and too complex a character for a lot of others - easy to get wrong, and therefore endangered when out of reliable hands.

Date: 2009-06-18 11:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chengar.insanejournal.com
Huntess' methods have certainly made it hard for just about any member of the Bat-clan to get along with her, though Helena's stint as a Bat is kind of odd since in her initial appearance she was trying to pass herself off as BatMAN. I'm pretty Babs is well aware of every single person Helena has killed, so presumably she viewed them as justifiable enough to not go after Huntress over the matter. While they had unpleasnt history, to me it seemed like it was Huntress' relationship with Dick that added an element of personal rancor; there were plenty of reasons for Oracle and Huntress to have issues, but Dick was the only thing that really made Babs dislike Helena. Your thoughts on how Babs-Helena relates to Babs-Tim are also quite interesting.

Like a lot of morally grey characters (Jason Todd springs to mind as a recent example) Huntress can have difficulty when dealing with a writer who prefers to keep their morality black and white. Her temper is also a major character flaw that can end up getting exaggerated by writers who don't quite get all of the complex ins and outs of her character.

Date: 2009-06-19 01:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluefall.insanejournal.com
but Dick was the only thing that really made Babs dislike Helena.

Eh. That's Dinah's line, but I don't buy it. Babs was hating on Helena from the beginning, long before either of them ever dreamed of hooking up with Dick. She flips out on Dinah for even thinking of teaming with Hel in the second Birds mini, Helena complains in the Annual flashback about how judgmental Oracle is, and her reaction to Dick actually sleeping with Helena when it finally does happen long after any of that is incredibly mellow and accepting. Dick calls her, naked, from Helena's kitchen no less, and Babs is nothing resembling jealous - she's maternal if anything, gently telling Dick he's being a dork and that it's not serious or workable between them. Contrast this to how livid she gets during NML when Hel wears the Bat, or raids her tower, or puts Jim in danger, or to how she behaves about Kory, who she does actually perceive as a threat.

Helena was barely a blip on Dick's radar, and all three of them know it. Babs feeling genuinely threatened by or jealous of that wouldn't make sense, and doesn't wash with the way she's been portrayed either then or after.

Jason Todd springs to mind as a recent example

The female Bats and the Even Robins have a lot of thematic overlap. Having to fight for a place in the Clan, being more willing to be brutal or even lethal, suffering ignominious fates, etc etc. Jason and Hel are especially close mirrors, both equal distance from the white hat/black hat line on opposite sides, him starting in the Clan and getting kicked out for his violence and her starting out of the Clan and being brought in for her mellowing out, both equally likely to be written as utterly deranged by writers who can't comprehend that they'd act the way they do if they weren't. And hey, Helena had rape retconned out of her backstory and Jason's just probably had rape retconned into his! The parallels are astounding. -_-

Date: 2009-06-19 06:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chengar.insanejournal.com
Bah, why must you use your facts and logic to prove me wrong! I suppose that since I've recently re-read Simone's run of BoP I was buying into Dinah's line on the matter. Of course, Dinah was making that arguement right after Babs and Dick broke up, so it would make sense that anything Nightwing-related would be a sore point for Babs at that time.

On the paralells between Helena and Jason, it's also worth mentioning that Helena came into the Bat-books pretty soon after Death in the Family. I suppose it says something about the nature of the Bat-Clan that the outsider who wants to get into the clan and tends to be a touch more willing to use lethal force is such a common theme.

Date: 2009-06-18 07:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] warpedhand.insanejournal.com
"But in all seriousness, after the third time one character has managed to pretty thoroughly out-stealth the other, I think it might be reasonable to conclude that it's not a fluke."

I agree. So many people just cannot write Batman properly.

Date: 2009-06-18 07:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scottyquick.insanejournal.com
So many people just cannot write Batgod properly.


Date: 2009-06-19 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aaron_bourque.insanejournal.com
Look, there's championing your character, and then there's OVER-championing. This has nothing to do with a Batman who isn't perfect, nothing to do with BatGod.

3 times.

3 times.

3, in 2 and a half decades or so?

Yeah, she's a master at stealth. The best. Even Superman can't see her, she's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good at it. GOD doesn't know when she's skulking around. And in case you can't tell, I am being SARCASTIC.{/HOMER SIMPSON}

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; yes, there are probably a few other such moments, the point is she's not consistently shown as being able to outstealth Batman. She's done it a handful, maybe a couple handfuls of times. Considering the collective creation that is comics, this really amounts to nothing.


Date: 2009-06-19 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] parsimonia.insanejournal.com
Members are encouraged to express their opinions here, and are free to agree or disagree with those opinions. Attacks and passive aggressive behaviour, however, are not acceptable. Please review the community ethos (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/profile#ETHOS)

Date: 2009-06-18 08:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.insanejournal.com
Everybody can and should be able to outstealth Batman on occasion. Otherwise he just becomes way to powerful and nobody can make interesting entrances.

Date: 2009-06-19 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aaron_bourque.insanejournal.com
Three times in one story would be consistent. Three times over a year or two, even. She's been shown to occasionally catch Batman off guard, YEARS between instances, in separate titles, by different authors. This has nothing to do with the BatGod. You want to have sex with Helena Bertinelli, that's fine. A little sexual fantasy is healthy.

Sucking on her anus in public though, isn't.

(frozen) First Strike

Date: 2009-06-19 03:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] parsimonia.insanejournal.com
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