What does this say about Superman and Batman?

[richardak]

What if Batman were a woman?

So these scans are from an Elseworld comic called JLA: Shogun of Steel, in which Kal-El's rocket lands in feudal Japan, as does Brainiac, who takes over under the name Zunou, while Kal is raised by a humble fisherman who names him Hoshi.  Eventually Kal joins a rebel group fighting Zunou's tyranny; these rebels are clearly this world's version of the Justice League.

So which member of the League is she?

That's right, she's this world's version of Batman.  Let's meet the rest of the League:

So that's Green Arrow.  Incidentally, I feel I should say something about the fact that the League is willing to kill in this story: given the circumstances of the setting,and the fact that none of them, at least until Hoshi joins, actually have superpowers, it would be unbelievable that they would not use deadly force.  Anyway, let's meet the rest of the League.

There's the Flash and Hawkman, but I'm not sure who Rikichi is supposed to be.  Anyway, let's skip ahead to where Hoshi is explaining his origins to Komori:

So this world's versions of Superman and Batman end up becoming lovers.  I know that this is the sort of thing that has already been done with Apollo and Midnighter, but I thought this was interesting.

Comments

[espanolbot]

Obligatory Naruto reference,
Hana: Love me you sexy ninja bastard!

I am interested in this series, though I've only seen scans of it. Is it in trade anywhere?

[richardak]

As far as I know, this wasn't a series; it was a one-shot done in prestige format.

[sherkahn]

rikichi... plastic man?

[crinos]

does it ever show what his powers are?

In any case, in Japanese Rikichi means "Good Luck", "Congratulations", or "Logic", so it isn't much help there.

[freezer]

J'onn, then?

[ex_mugiwara814]

Or perhaps it's a mispelling of Rikishi (sumo wrestler). Which still doesn't say who he could be.

[iskander]

Elseworld stories are fun but all too often they take on too much,in the form of adding characters/heroes that just gunk up the plot. For instance I think Red son would have been better with just superman instead of adding all the other folks to see how they changed as well.

[darklorelei]

But everyone loves Bruce's sexy hat!

[liara_shadowsong]

I *loved* Shogun of Steel, in no small part because Hana is completely awesome. Wheee! (Also, I don't really know who Rikichi is, either.)

[box_in_the_box]

... It occurs to me that I can't think of a single superhero, male or female, whose primary motivation was to avenge their MOTHER'S death.

[darkblade]

I can't think of any heroes that lost their mother but not their father to make the aformentioned vengence for both parents.

[box_in_the_box]

And yet, even in cases where BOTH parents die, it's almost always the FATHER who's lionized after death as the inspiration for the superhero. YOU HAD A MOM TOO, BRUCE.

[darkblade]

Bruce usually refers to his parents being dead not just his Father.

[box_in_the_box]

True, but every flashback to his living parents plays up his dad almost exclusively as the inspiration for what Bruce does and who he became. I can't even remember any onscreen version of Bruce's mom SPEAKING, much less giving him valuable life lessons.

[darkblade]

You do have a point there.

[box_in_the_box]

Similarly, Clark lost both his his biological parents, but aside from Superman II, the only one we ever hear from is Jor-El, and the only reason that Superman II had Susanna York as Lara giving her son sex advice was because Marlon Brando had played Jor-El, and he was such an unholy terror to work with that they refused to deal with him again.

[galateus]

There were posts here from the Bronze Age when they made Lara into the dominant one in the relationship, at least. She was the Superwoman when Jor-El was pure Clark Kent.

Still not much of a relationship with her kid, though.

[kingrockwell]

But the most prominent imagery involving their death is her pearls.
She also played a big part in Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, which Thomas was rather absent from.

[box_in_the_box]

But the most prominent imagery involving their death is her pearls.

Yeah. Her JEWELRY. Which means that she's LITERALLY a purely ornamental female character.

[schala_kid]

This, it pissed me off how Lara pretty much gets set aside in the Superman mythos and it's always the relationship between Kal-El and Jor-El.
Rarely do I see a moment between Kal and Lara Lor-Van, the only one I can currently think of is in Supergirl when she tells Kal how her mom used to sing to him.

[box_in_the_box]

Psychic replies. :)

[jelly_ace]

Maybe because boys want male role models?

And maybe because Thomas set himself as that person who inspires Bruce, giving him lessons in life and whatever. Martha is, I think, more pragmatic and keeps him grounded and more concerned with raising Bruce in the right now instead of in the future.

I always thought Bruce has Daddy issues, and those not necessarily inspire him to be Batman, but influences his decision to being Batman.

[box_in_the_box]

Maybe because boys want male role models?

I suppose, but considering that you're talking to a boy who idolized Sarah Jane Smith almost as much as the Doctor, I wonder how much of that is simply due to a lack of female role models that boys are given in their fiction.

[jelly_ace]

Our society is pretty gendered (major understatement there), and art often imitates life, so...

[perletwo]

Martha showed up a lot in flashback - or at least was talked about a lot - during that period where Athena wossername was running Wayne Enterprises, didn't she?

[thosefew]

Tim Drake lost his mother, but his father was only crippled.

[megami18]

And Jason Todd. He had a good-for-nothing dad, but it was the death of his mom that affected him. Both moms, really.

[ladymirth]

Tim had very little reaction to his mother dying, considering. He seemed more torn up about his Dad being crippled, and while his mother was killed almost as an afterthought, the death of his father was long-drawn out and gratuitous. It turned him grim dark and angsty almost all at once. Tim is shown visiting his father's grave many times, but hardly ever his mother's. In fact, he didn't even seem to have any qualms of Dana possibly supplanting his mother's role when she came on the scene, although she was nice enough to explain to him that she wouldn't. And even though she was a kick-ass stepmom to him and he grew quite fond of her, he seems to have forgot all about her after Infinite Crisis.

I'd almost prefer it if DC hated female characters instead of seeming rather vaguely surprised that they even exist.

[kingrockwell]

Hmm... Not for vengeance per say, but I seem to recall Steve Roger's mother's death being a catalytic moment in his life. If I recall the origin I read when I was a kid properly, he might've either signed on for the Super Soldier program as a way to save her, or out of aimlessness after she died (of pneumonia, i think).

Also, in Huntress: Cry For Blood, while Helena's parents and brother were all murdered, her mother in particular seemed to be the focus. That was probably all wiped away by Huntress: Year One, though.

Catwoman's Zero Hour-era origin involved her taking her inspiration from how cowed her father had been by her mother. I don't remember whether she was dead or if she just left them. She sets off when her father dies more out of opportunity than catalysis.

That's all I can think of.

[richardak]

I agree about Huntress, except I don't think her mother's death being her primary motivation was retconned away by Year One.

[kingrockwell]

Well, I was mostly guessing. I haven't read it yet.

[psychopathicus_rex]

Also, there's a moment in an Avengers story where he drops to his knees and weeps after learning that the only photograph of his mother had been destroyed. Clearly, he was a devoted son.

[lamashtar]

Didn't Barry Allen Flash just get retconned to that very thing?

[kamino_neko]

Not really. He's not particularly vengeance-driven... He wants to prove that his father didn't do it. (Also, I suspect his mother's murder will probably be removed from continuity again after Rebirth.)

[arilou_skiff]

Social context, most superheroes were created in the 30's-60's period. IE: The period of absent dads. (either because of war, or just the new industrial system) superheroes miss their absent dads because that was largely the reality of the time period. (still is to some degree, but to a lesser extent)

There's actually been a whole lot of literature written about of unusual it is for a couple of generations to grow up raised almost exclusively by their mothers. (which, contrary to popular beliefs, generally did not happen in traditional societies)

[valtyr]

Isn't Batwoman's the death of her mother and twin sister?

[redstar]

I still want more male heroes picking up female legacies. There's less to start with, sure, since there are a lot less female Golden Agers to mine for new characters or female Justice Leaguers to pick up sidekicks, but even so- what have we got? Power Boy, wearing way too much pants and lasting about a week? Sandman's kid sidekick getting retconned as being inspired by Sandman's girlfriend? You'd think there'd be some fourteen-year-old boys dreaming of being personally trained by Wonder Woman or Black Canary.

[darkblade]

Are you sure they don't cry out for JUSTICE Mr. Japanese Green Arrow.

[schala_kid]

Man this is like Girl!Tony and Steve, I sometimes wonder if DC and Marvel are trying to tell us something when they do this. But yeah Superman and Batman... The fact that they both are intended to be heterosexual males (and Clark being married) stops them from being anything more than best friends. But sometimes I look at this and Midnighter and Apollo and it's like DC WANTS them together.

[richardak]

I think Jeph Loeb possibly does.

[warsaw]

Oh, Jeph Loeb totally does.

[blossommorphine]

I was thinking exactly this. :)

[jelly_ace]

I didn't come around to reading this cuz I didn't think they'd really pull off the premise and the nuances of Japanese culture.

But Batman as a ninja girl...that's kinda cool.