Two questions...

[benicio127]

OK. Question numero uno. I just picked up Cap. America: Road to Rebirth, cause a friend of mine told me to check out Bucky's resurrection and the whole storyline and so far it's pretty good. Other than Winter Soldier, what are some of the issues I should pick up? I keep hearing how Bucky's resurrection was better than Jason Todd's (following Under the Hood).



And now for the question that's pretty much re-hashing the atrocity that was Battle for the Cowl. So Bruce's asshattery message to Jason. This was actually brought on by a convo w/ another friend. My only question was going to be about Bucky Barnes trades. But well, I guess I figured I'd ruined all of y'all's Thursday, too. :-D

Could Tony Daniel have written this in a way that, oh I don't know, didn't make it seem like there was further trauma in Jason's childhood more than living on the streets, having a father who was killed by Two-Face, an adoptive mother who was a junkie, a real mother who betrayed him, being beaten nearly to death with a crowbar, blown up and later dig his way out of his own grave? 
The fact that there's more deep-seated trauma than ALL OF THIS kinda seems a bit much.

You know, written it in a way that didn't seem like Jason was molested as a child or something, because that's practically how it reads to me. I don't know how many of you think about this scene in terms of Rage and Screams, but I kinda do.

But really, what SHOULD Bruce have said to Jason as his last words? 
For reference of what Bruce said... see scan.






Wow. This scene still kinda makes me want to vomit.  BRB WRITING LETTERS TO DC>>>


suggested tags: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, robin/red hood/jason todd, batman/bruce wayne, captain america/bucky barnes

Comments

[hyperactivator]

The worst thing that this implies is that while all of the other batfamily had traumatic pasts that made them become heros Jason path to the dark side was because his trauma was so much worse.

They are saying that either he was too broken or weak to begin with and that his fate was not really Batman's fault.

Also the one shot Winter Soldier :Winter Kills guest staring the Young Avengers is well worth picking up.

[yaseen101]

Well during that time DC or Jim Starlin to be particular was trying his best to make everyone dislike Jason. He was loud, impetuous, brutal, disobeys orders because apparently Starlin doesn't like costumed kid side kicks. So due to his growing unpopularity, DC decided to let the fans decide his fate and in A Death of the Family, Jason ran off to confront the Joker and got blown up. There were two scenes drawn, one showing Jason dead and the other had him survive explosion with Bruce screaming "THANK GOD, HE IS ALIVE!". Well, we all know which scene made it into the comic book.

[theanswer]

Why is that a bad thing?

[benicio127]

Yeah, I've heard good things about Winter Soldier. The art in Road to Rebirth is so pretty. And the writing is stellar so far. I'm really enjoying it.

[yaseen101]

Well for the first part, yes, Bucky's resurrection was done well and better than Jason. In fact everything was done better in Captain America than the Bat-titles, Steve's death, Bucky taking up the mantle, Bucky earning the mantle and Steve returning were done and handled much better than Batman's.

As for the second part, that is a very badly written scene, though, even I'm not sure what Bruce should have said to Jason. He can't exactly praise nor can he talk him down since it is last words and all, plus not much has been done with the Bruce/Jason relationship. Jason has always been referred to as Bruce's one failure that he partly took him in because he misses Dick and thought he could do the same with Jason. Now that he is back and is a gun-toting, black sheep of the family wouldn't he feel even more like he failed?

So yeah, I have no idea what he should have said.

[benicio127]

Yeah, about Bucky: that's what my friend said. But then he went on to say he finds Jason a much more interesting character, and I agree with him on that.

On one hand you have a soldier sidekick who's come back to life and is brainwashed and is now on the path to redemption; on the other you have a murdered sidekick (former street kid) who's come back and has a love/hate relationship with his father-figure who he believes did not avenge him by letting his murderer remain alive and continue to harm others.

[mystery]

As long as your mentioning Cap/Batman *ahem* "parallels", don't forget the Slaughterhouse 5ing of both of them! Coming up soon: Unstuck in Time.

Agreed on Bucky, and that nothing much has been done with Bruce and Jason's relationship. Or Jason's relationship with Dick or Tim.

[perletwo]

What I think Bruce SHOULD have said to Jason in a final goodbye message was, "Getting to Africa 10 minutes too late was my greatest failure. Your death was the second worst thing that ever happened to me. I couldn't say this to you until now, but I thank God every day that you came back to life, despite our differences since then. I was proud to have you as a son."

What I thought at the time Bruce WOULD have said was, "If you're seeing this it means I'm dead. Gotham needs a Batman. You're the only one I can trust to step up and do what has to be done. Make me proud!" - Because he knew Dick would be reluctant to take the cowl, and on recent history I thought Bruce would use Jason to manipulate Dick right up to the end. (see also: hiring then firing Steph to needle Tim into coming back.)

The childhood trauma thing is just stupid. Whatever happened in his childhood, I'm pretty sure dying, clawing his way out of a coffin, and being dunked in a Lazarus Pit trumps it for trauma.

[shadowpsykie]

i motto your first paragraph,

and i psuedo motto your second one, onely because at this point i don't think Bruce would try manipulating again, except that his death aws kinda sudden and he might not have changed this particular message... when he comes back "Oh crap... jason got THAT Message? I meant to change that, but between The Black Hand, and the Darkseid stuff i never got around to that.... how did that go?"

[benicio127]

I absolutely 100% agree on all of it. I think Bruce would have also told Jason he loved him.

The "You are my greatest failure" reads as though Jason is the one who failed; rather than Bruce meaning it as "I failed you", which is what I'm 99.99% sure is what Bruce really means.

[yaseen101]

What I think Bruce SHOULD have said to Jason in a final goodbye message was, "Getting to Africa 10 minutes too late was my greatest failure. Your death was the second worst thing that ever happened to me. I couldn't say this to you until now, but I thank God every day that you came back to life, despite our differences since then. I was proud to have you as a son."

*bows before you*

[shadowvalkyrie]

What I think Bruce SHOULD have said to Jason in a final goodbye message was, "Getting to Africa 10 minutes too late was my greatest failure. Your death was the second worst thing that ever happened to me. I couldn't say this to you until now, but I thank God every day that you came back to life, despite our differences since then. I was proud to have you as a son."

Pretty much that.

[mystery]

What I think Bruce SHOULD have said to Jason in a final goodbye message was, "Getting to Africa 10 minutes too late was my greatest failure. Your death was the second worst thing that ever happened to me. I couldn't say this to you until now, but I thank God every day that you came back to life, despite our differences since then. I was proud to have you as a son."

Oh, that's fantastic. I think he should have subbed 'one of the two worst things' but I love this very much.

[irrelevant]

Your first paragraph: yeah, that. Not sure Bruce would've fucked with his head quite as badly as you seem to think--that's Bat-dickery past even Bruce's capacity, at least where Jason is concerned.

Last paragraph: maybe not trumped, but exponentially made worse, totally.

[shadowpsykie]

*sigh* up until this point Jason WAS healing, yes he wasn't on the side of angles, but he was at least on the side of half-breeds, let me put it simpler... there are Jedi, there are sith and then there are Shadow Jedi. at the very least he went from Sith to Shadow Jedi. then this happend and he was shoved into the Sith corner again and became a full blown sith lord

[benicio127]

My God. I love this Star Wars reference.

[cainofdreaming]

Brilliant Doctor Who? Well, Alfred is a Brit, so I guess it's possible...

Now I can't stop imagining Jason as Rose.

[shadowpsykie]

i can see him as captain jack, morally ambiguous

[mystery]

Bucky's resurrection was handled much better than Jason's.

I don't actually care for it, but is implying what you're saying Daniel implied (childhood trauma) that different that what Winick wrote Jason as implying here? (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/987439.html)

It is a shame that those were Bruce's last words to Jason. I wish he'd said something different. I wonder why it was written that he said what he said. Of course I don't know if, so much like most of BftC, that was editorially mandated or not. The reason I say that is because it feels like the kind of thing that has to be followed up on. But then it hasn't been. In B and R we got red-headed, acne-plagued ad man Jason. But honestly, B and R feels like an Elseworld to me much of the time, so...

When BftC was written, I believe Winick was in line to write Batman, and did so for a few issues before the title was given to Daniel. Was Winick going to follow up on it? I hear he comes back to the title soon. Wonder if he will at that point.

But I do wish Bruce's last words to Jason had been different. I wish Jason was actually dealt with in the family, and the issues between he and Bruce, Dick and Tim were dealt with instead of the way they're... not. It's very much weird and sad that it's not.

[benicio127]

Yeah, the scene with Mia. I think I didn't take it to mean that he was hooking or was molested as much as the above scene makes it out to be some deep-seated trauma akin to that.

I'd prefer to have Jason's trauma remain at all of the stuff I listed above. Plus some of the other shit that's happened to him since he was resurrected, you know?!!! I mean. How much can one person handle?!!!

[irrelevant]

Jason Todd has been fucked up, over, backwards and sideways by DC writers. Frankly? I've been pissed since they killed him, and I was even more pissed by the way they brought him back.

To DC writers, Jason seems to be little more than a revenge button to push, and possibly a sadistic plothole fill. Just... nnnnrgh. Just thinking about this scene makes me want to hurt things. Yes, they handled it badly, and yes, I freaking hate it.

But DC dug itself a pit with Jason's name on it waaaaay before his resurrection. *weeps*

[sistermagpie]

Well, the first thing is that Bruce shouldn't have been talking to Jason from beyond the grave. The question is all the things Bruce should have said to Jason NOW THAT HE WAS ALIVE!

There's almost nothing he can say here because Jason's been so all over the place it's hard to know exactly what thing Bruce needs to address.

But speaking generally, the above line about getting to Africa too late etc. is the right tact. That he is part of the family and always will be.

[mystery]

Well, the first thing is that Bruce shouldn't have been talking to Jason from beyond the grave. The question is all the things Bruce should have said to Jason NOW THAT HE WAS ALIVE!

Heh. Good point!

And wow, Jason sure has been all over the place. Even recently!

[jelly_ace]

Lemme get this straight: Bruce takes blame for everything that happened to Jason, he did allude to the fuck-ups that happened to Jason as my failure. And even in the end, Bruce's still trying to save him. Kinda. And that makes him an asshat? Could someone enlighten me? Please? I'm curious.

[mystery]

Hey, good question.

[icon_uk]

Oddly, the first thing that comes to mind is the line from a Devin Grayson Gotham Knights story, the one where a recent parolee explains (to a Personnel person working for WayneTech) that he wants to reform because he was caught committing a crime by Batman and all Batman said to him was "You can do better than this Peter" which meant that Batman had known who he was BEFORE he arrested him, and if Batman knew him well enough to make a comment like that then maybe he really COULD do better.

"Jason, if you think I failed you then I'm sorry. But despite that and your actions since you returned, I know you can do better."

[yaseen101]

Nice! :D

You and perletwo came up with the best ones, IMO.

" perletwo
What I think Bruce SHOULD have said to Jason in a final goodbye message was, "Getting to Africa 10 minutes too late was my greatest failure. Your death was the second worst thing that ever happened to me. I couldn't say this to you until now, but I thank God every day that you came back to life, despite our differences since then. I was proud to have you as a son.""

[jelly_ace]

You can do better than this Peter.

Very eloquent. And coming from Batman? Damned powerful.

[jaybee3]

I think Captain America is the best thing Marvel published and I've thought that since Brubaker took over. The return of Bucky to the MU has been pretty seamless (who would have though that) and I find it hilarious that one of the most badass and important characters in the whole verse is now a guy named Bucky (at least Black Widow doesn't call him that).

The Jason thing is the exact opposite.I usually loathe Winnick's writing but I have to say he was the only one who's has EVER returned from the dead Jason well. His Jason had pathos and was a true anti-hero who was obviously just seeking his Daddy's love. Since then we've had Countdown (I won't go there) and Jason abducting Mia in Green Arrow, beating up Tim in Teen Titans, Grant Morrison turning him into a red-haired (with no bangs,even) acne-faced un-handsome (and Jason was formerly pretty-good looking) balding 20-year old, and then there's Tony Daniel's portrayal of him in BtfC as a bat-sh!t (pardon the pun) crazy killer who is totally irredeemable and unreachable. At this point they might as well kill the character off again, there's pretty much no hope of him joining the "Family" again and he's stuck in jail (again). And the words Daniel puts in Bruce's mouth seem totally false. If Bruce really believed in psychiatric help he would have done that already - with himself as well (and some stories do have Bruce seeking counseling - but it never lasts). Jason was/is Bruce's adopted son who he literally mourned for years (and everybody knows it) and yet here is in his final message to Jason and no words of love and regret (for the years lost etc.) but just cliches and platitudes, as if he was just another mentor but NOT a father (and the latter is clearly where Jason's issues come from).

Eh. I think Tony Daniel makes pretty art but his writing is....not working at all. It's better now but considering how bad BftC, that's not saying much.

About Bucky...

[benicio127]

Where do I start? Winter Soldier tpbs?
My LCS guy told me they were fabulous and I had to read them at some point. So far, I'm really enjoying Road to Rebirth.

I find it hilarious that one of the most badass and important characters in the whole verse is now a guy named Bucky

Right?! HA. When I came home with the tpb, I told my guy about Bucky and he burst out laughing at the name, too.

[3goodtimes]

While I don't like some of the language of Bruce's speech (you're my biggest failure, Jason), I do think it's reasonable to assume there might have been some sexual trauma for Jason if he lived on the streets for awhile.

What should Bruce have said? I love you. Words I believe Jason has been waiting to hear for far too long. I love you, please forgive me, I want you to have peace and happiness.

Damn, the whole path DC put Jason on pisses me off.

[3goodtimes]

Oh and... you were a good soldier and wonderful partner. I was proud to work with you.

That too.

[sun_man]

DC completely ruined Jason's character over the last 8 months