Mod Post: Clarification on the Community Ethos and Anti-Oppression

[mad]

(Cross-posted to NoScans_Daily.)

We'd like to thank all our members for bearing with us while we worked out a response to the comments and queries raised in parusmajor's post on anti-oppression, the community ethos and the mod stance on it. We're cross-posting this both to the thread and both comms and have attempted to make our stance as clear as possible to avoid further confusion.

We need to be very clear that the moderation team will clamp down on discriminatory behaviour where we see it and we will continue to apply anti-oppression methods of moderation, many of which can be read up on in our Resources post, which has been up and linked from the main page for several months. The reason we raised this issue now was not because it was comics related, but because it was community related. What better place to discuss discrimination than one where it has, unfortunately, recently been at work?

We also need to be very clear that we're concerned most with those who are being denigrated - we do not believe that our priority is protecting those members who are called out for, or demonstrate, discriminatory behaviour or bigotry. This is not about making the community safe for those members. We do realize that sometimes comments can be made that are unintentionally discriminatory. In those cases, we hope that any member who gets called out would be able to apologize and learn from the experience and, if doing so, we will strive to ensure they are not harassed over what may well have been a mistake or misunderstanding. In most cases, a heartfelt apology is enough to defuse a misunderstanding. If it isn't, we will endeavour to step in and mediate to protect all out members. We are confident that the majority of members are able to handle these situations well, and can recover from mistakes. But at all times our priority will be those members who are discriminated against over those who are called out.

We'd point members again to the community ethos that talks about trying to make Scans_Daily and NoScans_Daily a safer space for those who are discriminated against. That has always been a part of Scans_Daily's ethos ever since the community was founded as part of the slash community and the only change is that the moderators have tried to be more active about anti-oppression. We fully intend to continue to do so and to help make Scans_Daily and NoScans_Daily places where bigotry and discrimination are not tolerated, but where everyone, minorities and non-minorities alike, can feel safer.

What does that mean for the average member? Very little. We genuinely believe that the large majority of our members are open-minded and aware of oppression issues and have no intent to harm. The vast majority of posts on the community members do not need any moderator intervention. The policy of encouraging the calling out of other members or creators for discriminatory or oppressive behaviour is one that has been written in as part of the community's ethos for nearly a year, and the vast majority of members have continued to post and discuss comics without any concern. One only need look at the 60+ posts to Scans_Daily since the last mod post to see that, for the most part, it's business as usual.

We would say that for anyone who does not feel comfortable with these anti-oppression policies, there are a large number of forums and communities online which do not follow such policies, where they may feel more at ease. However, we will state that there's no big change here and that if you've been comfortable being part of these communities for some time, there's no reason for that to change.

We have seen some concern that policy has changed and we're now allowing personal attacks. We're not and we need to be clear on this. The subject of tone has been brought up many times in the comments of the mod post and we'd particularly encourage people towards reading The privilege of politeness, an essay not written by us but which we believe clarifies our stance on this issue. As part of our stance on anti-oppression moderating, prompted in part by events on this community last year, we recognize that those who are confronting discrimination, and may well be on a daily basis, shouldn't be expected to react to bigotry and discrimination with calmness and politeness. Bigotry is not polite, it is an attack and insulting. Thus, we will give more leeway to those members who are being discriminated against if they have an understandable emotional response. If someone is being horribly discriminated against, even unintentionally, we are likely to be more understanding if they snap back, once or twice. However, we encourage anyone being discriminated against to disengage and ask for modly intervention in such cases.

Rest assured, the rules on personal insults and attacks are not changing and repeated harassment, personal attacks, or insults will also not be tolerated.

We would like to thank those members who have commented on the previous post and have been supportive of those who have been discriminated against. We'd also like to thank those who made positive contributions to or constructive criticism of the moderators' approach. We have taken these comments on board and in any future posts we will strive to be clearer with our intent, and provide resources so members can further educate themselves if they choose to do so. However, there is no compunction to comment on such discussion: if you feel that an issue doesn't directly affect you, we'd ask you simply skip past it. Intentional or not, derailing from what may be a deeply personal issue for some members can drown out their voices. This is not acceptable.

As always, we welcome comments and criticism, but be aware that the ethos of the community is not up for debate - we have every intention of continuing to strive towards making this a safer space for everyone, and that won't be changing.


We'd like to thank our members for supporting us on this.

- The Scans_Daily and NoScans_Daily Mod Team


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Comments

[bluejaybirdie]

I'd just like to say thank you to all of you for making Scans_daily a safe space and for helping educate me about privilege and other issues. My experience here has been great largely because of that (and the fun comic scans!).

[punishermax]

Were this posted in most other places I can almost guarantee the fist comment would have been "This is gay" or something along those lines.

And then the future would refuse to change.

[cainofdreaming]

This does not make me feel safer. Though the fear in this case is not all for myself (there's that too, since I've invested an emotional attachment into this place), but I've just been in a similar situation elsewhere - where the mods and a portion of the population do not see eye to eye (I'm oversimplifying, yes, but really, if not for that everything is workable, right?).

It didn't end well. The place might still exist, but its pretty much just a name. The people who made it what it was have mostly gone their separate ways.

I don't want this to happen here.

Really, it feels like I'm swimming in a pool of piranhas currently. Afraid of stepping on one.

[punishermax]

Are we talking fear of saying something that may be considered offensive or that you're afraid as a minority group?

[proteus_lives]

I thought pretty much everything Parusmajor said was spot-on.

[cleome45]

Really? I thought that he was fearmongering to no good end, personally.

I also thought that he was testing the waters to see if anyone else wanted the mods who rubbed him the wrong way removed from their posts.

But, you know. That's just me.

[punishermax]

My only question is if we say something that one person is offended by, yet we did not mean offense, will we get to plead our case still? Or is it basically a tyranny of the majority situation where if enough people believe you meant offense or are offended then you're screwed?

[mad]

The thing to remember is that if you have caused hurt (offense), your intentions are often irrelevant. (Road to hell and all.)

If I drop a brick on my friend's foot, she's going to be in pain, and her foot is not going to instantly heal just because I didn't intend to drop the brick on her foot.

So, you can try to explain where you're coming from and that you meant no harm. Sometimes that is helpful. Sometimes, it may make you seem to be simply defensive and more interested in saving face than correcting your future behaviour, or recognizing and apologizing for the hurt you may have caused.

I hope I'm explaining this properly. Does that make sense?

[seriousfic]

Uh, no offense, but this sounds a lot like you're saying (in so many words) that from now on the mods will be taking sides and upholding a double standard. And I don't really know how effective that will be at cutting down on wank.

[stubbleupdate]

I'll be cutting down on wank because Lent is coming up

(Who am I kidding?)

[nevermore999]

I think this was well said, and I agree. I know I haven't been involved in the previous posts, mostly because it seemed like too much of a shitstorm to get into, but I am not afraid to speak out in this community otherwise. If I say something offensive, I want to be called on it so I can learn not to do it again.

[wasabi.livejournal.com]

If I say something offensive, I want to be called on it so I can learn not to do it again.

I feel the same. Even without going through the litany of marginalized groups I can claim membership in, I like to think I'm enough of an adult to withstand being told, "you made a mistake" and to educate myself without getting personally butthurt about it. That's how people learn and how times change.

[iskander]

I don't like the whole "thought crime" feeling of this. I myself have noticed mods who simply attempt to enforce their own views and not adhere to anything in the bounds of common sense.

[cleome45]

The world needs a drinking game for every misapplication of Orwell that invariably happens in these little excursions.

But only if I don't have to buy. I'm not made of money.

[nezchan]

I tend to side with the mods on the discrimination/safe space angle, although Parusmajor does make a few good points. I did notice a few instances in the previous conversation where mods got involved in fruitless sniping contests, and were not really as detached as they could have been. I do recognize that it was an emotional discussion and it does get wearing to have to repeat things multiple times. But a mod does need to realize that they need two personas. The regular user and the responsible authority figure. And the latter should, ideally, be able to separate themselves from the emotional situation. It inspires confidence from the members, reduces ammunition for trolls and the like, and generally makes their job easier.

I note that some mods are much better at this than others, and I'd recommend after this the mods do a post-mortem of what happened and their own handling of the situation. It could make situations much easier to handle in the future.

[angelophile]

Thanks for those observations. We'll take that on board.

[zemo]

I have a question: If someone feels insulted due to a bigot or racist comment and lashes out, do you contact them some time later and tell them something along the lines of "Yes, we didn't tell you to stop insulting this person right away, but you should know that this still wasn't nice, so try to not do it in the future again, even if you come over such a case again?"?

Because I can see giving someone leeway when tempers are hot. However, this being the Internet, and, more exactly, threads, it is possible to answer to things two days later. I don't see you still being furious by then. Angry, maybe, insulting? No.

I don't expect the mods to chastise anybody who felt insulted and insulted right back openly, but it would seem fair to tell them to try and avoid that reaction in the future some time later. Because if not that rightly leeway you are giving deteriorates into "YOU HAVE INSULTED ME! I AM A MINORITY! YOU SUCK!" which would be the thing parusmajor is afraid of.

[angelophile]

That's a tough one to call - you can never predict when somebody's going to read a comment. For example, a discriminatory comment made a day or two before can still be hurtful to someone who's reading it for the first time. It's not like a face-to-face conversation where you know what someone's saying and how they're saying it immediately.

However, as we say in the post, what we would ask people to try and do (and we know that's not always possible) is to disengage as soon as possible and ask for mod intervention. If, in a hypothetical situation, a member responded in anger and then two days later made another post with a similar tone we'd view that differently from a single incident. But, there are no hard and fast rules and we have to take everything on a case-by-case basis. We need to be clear that we're not going to be tolerating harassment, as the post says.

[punishermax]

So is swearing still cool? Cause I drop the F-Bomb a lot in my posts. Also, bitch, shit and other assorted words of curse.

[mad]

Yeah, swearing is okay. Although I'd advise some caution in how you apply the word "bitch", as when used against women/girls it's considered a gendered insult.

[halialkers]

As I said on NoScans, I agree with this post.

[halialkers]

I would also like to add a note of commendation to this-when people are already used to unequal treatment elsewhere in life, it is not a bad thing to provide a space where they do in fact receive the courtesy they do not elsewhere. Issues of inequality do not apply when people are already unequal as it is. There's no Animal Farm when it's the pigs protesting that the sheep do not get adequate treatment even as they benefit from what they already have.

[houbanaut]

I didn't read the entire 500+ comment discussion, but from what I saw I was disappointed in how the mods handled the situation, and I'm disappointed that the policy is now reaffirmed without modification.

The attempt to equate a faux pas with bullying, mistreatment and physical abuse was itself offensive, both to the person thus maligned and to the victims whose suffering was thereby trivialized.

I also believe that the double standard for behavior (with hypersensitivity to some insults and insensitivity to others), justified by the theory of privilege, is fundamentally unhealthy and – as it is practiced – oppressive and intolerant. Originally egalitarian opposition movements that adopted similar theories of discrimination against their perceived enemies (e.g. the Jacobins, the bolsheviks) saw it evolve into brutal tyranny once in power. I don't think S_D will come to a reign of terror, obviously, but I think it's important to recognize discrimination and totalitarian forms of thought at an early stage.

I would leave S_D over this disagreement except I think it's important that those who oppose this system stick around and provide another point of view.

[punishermax]

Upon reading the whole thing this is the only part that really bothers me. He clearly was sorry yet he was kicked ahd smacked and insulted constantly at every turn. It seemed really unfair. He didn't drop the N-bomb and say you guys are dicks when some one called him on it.

He said something that people found offensive, he got called out ()insultingly i might add), he tried to say what he really meant, got piled on, apoligized, was still piled on, and everyone just sorta patted themselves on the back for slaying the dragon.

[phosfate]

/mails the mods an OTC painkillers gift basket

[punishermax]

I think we all learned something here today.

Don't be a douche.

[skalja]

I honestly can't tell if you're trying to be ironic or not!

[dreamreaver]

*eyes glaze over*

What just happened?

[punishermax]

Civil War

Mad and the other mods are Iron Man's side and I think this parusmajor cat is Cap. I think I'm Carnage because I'm totally unfunny and contribute nothing so there you go.

[ar_feiniel]

Bigotry is not polite, it is an attack and insulting. Thus, we will give more leeway to those members who are being discriminated against if they have an understandable emotional response. If someone is being horribly discriminated against, even unintentionally, we are likely to be more understanding if they snap back, once or twice.

I don't think this is unreasonable if what you are saying is "We're going to consider circumstances in these situations" and not "Here is an entirely different set of rules in these situations." If someone is offended and calls out the offender, and in the process says certain things in the heat of the moment, I don't have a problem with the mods looking it over and deciding in that particular situation, they don't think a punishment is warranted.

[mad]

That's the gist of it, yeah.

[darkeyedresolve]

I've followed S_D for awhile, even managed to snag a invite code to come over to this new set up. I'm am somewhat surprised about when this Community Ethos was developed and when we started referring to a privilege of politeness or the idea of being privileged vis a vi minority or "oppressed" group. Do we as members get to vote on any of these issues and what the ethos should be?

I'm not for one moment saying that we shouldn't be a open and inclusive community, obviously since it was born from slash in comics, but is this truly the place and setting to push an idea about how certain people feel about politics and social oppression? Most members are here just for comics and all, and there are communities for political discussion and ideology.

[kingrockwell]

Minorities are also just here for comics and all, not to deal with oppressive comments. This isn't about politics, these are people's lives.

The mod team hasn't deemed to adopt its ethos without warrant, it was made in response to issues on-comm. The proper place and setting to deal with oppression is where oppression occurs.

[zemo]

I just thought of something: Will there be more posts like the Oppression one? Because I think you mods could easily diffuse the bunch of "soap box" and "preaching" questions if you straight out stated "We did this to point out why we acted how we acted on this one occasion, and as long as such an occasion doesn't arise again, we won't be making such a post again."

Might get some of the repeat-questions off your backs :)

[mystery]

I'm derailing and I do hope the mods answer your question anyway, but I do keep meaning to ask you--is your icon from Thief?

[parusmajor]

It's morning around here and I just woke up and saw this.
Mods: thank you for your response, and as I said yesterday, I'll accept what you and the community say, and I'll go with it.
Everyone: thank you for bearing with me, and apologies for lengthening the debate and any possible hurt feelings.

[parusmajor]

And you know, after mulling this over a little, I want to add this: even though I felt some of the mod team's actions in the anti-oppression thread were not okay, I want to thank you for how you dealt with my entry. Your response to it was professional, patient, fair, and I gained new respect and faith for the mod team because of that. Even though my side of the argument didn't really "win" or anything, I feel there's a better understanding of how things work here, and I feel a lot better about the community.

People don't tend to notice it and give compliments when moderators do their job right, but when they do something wrong, they will get to hear about it, a lot. And whatever you do (or don't do), someone's always going to complain. It's a rough job where you don't get much appreciation, and you don't get any money from it either, yet you still volunteer to do it. So, what I want to say is that I sincerely thank you for your patience and how you handled this. I also apologize if there was any personal offense I gave to any mods I mentioned by name in my entry. Mods are people with feelings too; I tried to keep the entry as polite as possible, and I'm sorry if anything hurtful slipped in.

Anyway, I'll "agree to disagree" with you on some things, but I respect your decisions and actions here, so keep up the good work :)

[kijikun]

I said this in the other post but it bears repeating:

You know what, I'd rather be in a community where the mods take sides against transphobia, homophobia, biphobia, sexism, rape apologists, and racism then in a community where the mods never do anything because they want to be seen as neutral.

Mods are not neutral, there is no community or forum that can claim neutral mods on all things. This is the internet, not a organized debate. Comic book scans are not a right. Scans_daily is not a right.

The mods shouldn't have to say in a community founded by female LGBTQA comic fans that certain language will not be tolerated. It is not 4chan. It is not newsgroup. It is not superdickery.

When someone says or does offensive hurtful things they need to be called on it, especially if they didn't mean it in a hurtful way. Because it's the only way we're going to have change. If a person doesn't know their behavior is hurtful and offensive, they aren't going to change it. No one likes being called on these things. And saying "I didn't realize how hurtful what I said or did was, I'm sorry" or "I'm sorry I did or said this hurtful thing", does not mean you are saying you are a horrible person.

I was called on something I'd done that was offensive and unconsciously fetishizing. I did not mean to be, but the fact was I'd hurt someone. I reacted badly. Hell I used the stupid "I'm sorry you found this offensive." I was more worried about my own feelings than the person I'd hurt. I wish I could go back and handle the situation better. And I wish it didn't take someone saying to me "I'm sorry you were offended" in a conversion about bisexuality before I got it.

Our words and actions do not exist in a vacuum.

[cmdr_zoom]

Except that, IMO, people who get dogpiled on - with the support and encouragement of the mods - aren't going to learn. They're going to feel defensive, they're going to swing back or disengage (that is, stop listening). They're going to feel unfairly treated, even if in the broader scale it's only a drop in the bucket compared to what others have and continue to experience.

Is the real intent to inform, or to return the hurt and shame inflicted?

[carmilla]

Only a lurker, but I'd just like to say I've been so surprised and pleased by the mod response over the past few days. Keep it up :)

[fifthie]

It sure is hard to figure out the difference between bigotry and getting angry at bigotry.

[pepperspray101]

One is proactive and one is reactive?

[pepperspray101]

Well, gotta say I feel safe here. Thanks guys, it's a very nasty job you have ahead of you, but it is appreciated.

[bean_montag]

Just popping my head in to say thanks again for doing this and sticking to your guns.

It's disheartening to see the same whining complaints and clueless arguments continued in this post (and they are the same) but I think you've gotten through to a few people at least.

Great work. Keep it up!!

[homo_impetus]

seconding