Jason and drug dealers

[benicio127]

I knew I'd read this once before some time ago, I just couldn't recall where. Finally I found it again.

Ever wonder why Jason has such an issue with drug dealers selling to children and/or allowing children to sell drugs?

It's personal.

Two pages from Batman 646, one from Batman 408 and one from Batman 409.

























This is why I really, really like the antagonistic anti-hero direction for him. While it allows him to remain a tragic figure in Batman's life, it still takes into account his past and the good he tried to do and the moral values he has.


suggested tags: char: batman/bruce wayne, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, title: batman, creator: judd winick, creator: max allan collins, creator: doug mahnke

Comments

[icon_uk]

It varied though, there's a story back in the day (though still Jason #2) where Jason has to deal with drugs being sold at his school, and he and Bruce discuss the matter of drugs, with Bruce pointing out that one of the things he hates most about drugs is that they alter the mind, and the mind is really the only thing a person has to rely on.

[benicio127]

Is that the one where he starts to date Rena? (I want to say it's Detective 563). I think all the Rena stuff is pre-crisis. I tend to think of pre-crisis Jason as a completely different character, just with the same name: different parents, different origin, different personality and different.... hair. ;-)
So I guess I think of whatever happened during that time never actually happened to the Jason we know today. But I would still imagine that if post-crisis Jason and Bruce ever had that conversation while he was Robin, that would stick in his mind, too.

Or are you talking about the one where he's wearing that Michael Jackson jacket? (LOL, it was a Batman Annual 11, IIRC) That one is post-crisis. I think it deals with drugs, too, but I can't remember. Maybe it was just kids who were cheating...

[icon_uk]

Checking into it, Detective 550 is the drugs ones I'm thinking of, and that is Jason #1, so fair point.

[mary]

Nope! That's Jason 1. Very much pre-crisis.

[sinisterlink]

I will never stop being amused at how Jason stole the tires off the Batmobile.

[grazzt]

In that vein, someone should post the time a ninja/car thief took the Batmobile for a joy ride.

[benicio127]

Right? The original story has Batman having this big belly laugh over it.
Lo and behold, during my search for the mom od'ing stuff, I also found letters to the editor of people saying how much they liked Jason's revamped origin.

[icon_uk]

Well, they weren't TOO likely to post that many negative ones on such a risky gamble they thought might still work.

I do recall someone in a letter column who disliked Jason so much that they suggested a running story should be the Joker kidnapping Jason's Robin and there would be a years worth of stories in trying to find out where they put him, only for it all to end with Batman discovering that Joker had handed Jason over to the Riddler, and the dance would begin again for anotter years worth of stories, then Two-Face... then the Penguin... I don't think they liked Jason much! :)

[benicio127]

Well, they weren't TOO likely to post that many negative ones on such a risky gamble they thought might still work.

I think it might also be a case of "who knows," you know? We as fans don't know how many letters they got and if they were strategically publishing positive or negative letters.

And LOL to that idea. I laugh because I see the parallels between him and Damian, even now there are still a lot of fans who detest Damian and have suggested many ways in which he could die. I like Damian, but I get frustrated with him in the role of Robin, especially after reading the latest Streets of Gotham. Here he is, providing the adorable and naive Colin/Abuse with a motorcycle that can be outfitted with a gattling gun.

It especially bothers me because I feel like this will come down to Dick being the irresponsible one. I understand where Damian's background is, that he was trained by the League of Assassins. But I feel like by now, he should know better.

[whitesycamore.livejournal.com]

Later on in DITF it says that Catherine Todd died "of a disease that just didn't care how much love she had in her heart" (LOL). So I've never been sure if she officially OD'd or not.

I kind of like the OD version, because it looks like Jason is brushing Batman off with a line about how she "got sick" because he doesn't want him to judge his mother or look down on her because she was a junkie.

And of course Bruce sees right through his white lie, but doesn't call him on it and... Guh, breaks my heart a little bit.

Agreed on Jason's anti-hero status. It goes right back to his original anger issues, which always sprang directly from over identification with victims.

[benicio127]

Later on in DITF it says that Catherine Todd died "of a disease that just didn't care how much love she had in her heart" (LOL).

Oh God. I wonder if that was just Starlin trying to paint Jason's parents as more loving or something because that was the death issue, wasn't it?

I really like the OD version as well, because it also shows that Jason spent a year caring for her and trying to keep her alive.

i>Agreed on Jason's anti-hero status. It goes right back to his original anger issues, which always sprang directly from over identification with victims.

Exactly. It's personal. I love how Winick kept that in Under the Hood. No dealing to kids or allowing kids to run drugs or you're dead. He also gave him this *does bad things* infiltrator status, since Jason was still taking profits from drug buys, prostitution, racketeering, and gun smuggling. I never got the sense that he was doing that to gain power or for money, but to infiltrate.

[aeolos_sakya]

He also gave him this *does bad things* infiltrator status, since Jason was still taking profits from drug buys, prostitution, racketeering, and gun smuggling. I never got the sense that he was doing that to gain power or for money, but to infiltrate.
Yep. When he "negotiates" the Kryptonite with Black Mask, it is implied that Jason already knew they wouldn't even pay him, and he clearly wasn't interested in the money at all, saying that he had already got what he wanted ("A lay of the land") when Dicks says they'll take the kryptonite.
Winnick's Jason is one of my favorite character. Sure, he is in a way an enemy of Bruce, but his main concern is the safety of the innocents.

[benicio127]

Sure, he is in a way an enemy of Bruce, but his main concern is the safety of the innocents.

Right? He's a grey character. And in Batman's world, there should be grey characters. Selina is a grey character; Talia was, until Morrison got his hands on her and now she's like Victor von Doom in a wig. And so is Jason. And anti-hero is most certainly a direction for a character.
He's an antagonist, but not a black and white villain. I don't think a lot of people understand this concept, especially when it comes to Jason, tbh. (Certain writers don't even seem to understand it). It's explained in more detail here.

[arysteia]

I really like the OD version as well, because it also shows that Jason spent a year caring for her and trying to keep her alive.

I don't think that actually disappears in the "other" version. I was reading this thinking, "Huh? I thought he nursed her through [cancer? generic long term illness]."

While I don't disagree with you re Jason the anti-hero, I think I actually preferred him having one good parent. I remember thinking at the time she got the short end of the stick once everyone started talking about his "real" mother (who he knew for five minutes before lo and behold, hark a villain).

[whitesycamore.livejournal.com]

Well I got the impression that she loved Jason even if she did have a drug habit (and it's obvious that he loved her).

I agree with the whole 'real mother' thing being unfair to poor old Catherine. And it really creeped me out how he started hugging on Sheila and calling her "mother" within three seconds of meeting her. She was a complete stranger! And whatever happened to personal boundaries?

[arysteia]

Fair point. I was reacting more to the paradigm: dad's a lowlife, mom's a junkie --> kid's doomed. Of course the fact she had a habit doesn't mean she didn't love him.

[alienist]

I think Jason was just desperate for any sort of parent at that point.

[benicio127]

I don't think that actually disappears in the "other" version. I was reading this thinking, "Huh? I thought he nursed her through [cancer? generic long term illness]."

Yeah, I had the same reaction when I re-read ADitF recently. But, agreed, I don't think it's disappeared, I think it's more... that it's lightened.

It's sad that Catherine was a drug addict, but I don't necessarily think that means she was the worst of the worst in terms of parenting, since we don't know much about her. She obviously made bad choices, probably resulting in herself and her stepson ending up on the street, but I think Sheila's betrayal was far worse than what Catherine did.

[arysteia]

Oh, absolutely, no argument.

I think I'm possibly reacting subconsciously to all the recent argument about genetic good and evil in DC, *g*. On that level, it would be nice if Jason had a saintly mother as well as a dead beat dad.

[benicio127]

I think I'm possibly reacting subconsciously to all the recent argument about genetic good and evil in DC

Oooooh, yes. Funny that, I just posted that interview Tony Daniel had with IGN about a year ago on tumblr.

I'll just re-post a snippet to, er, *brighten* everyone's mood. (I try my best)
Daniel: The way I look at it is I find him very intriguing because he’s evil in the sense that anyone else might be evil. In his case, childhood events and the way he was brought up led Bruce to try and take him under his wing and steer him in the right direction, but the events that happened early to this guy really shaped him into what he is now.

I think that’s true in the case of any evil person – they had to have something happen to them that turned them bad. And Jason has such a history in the Batman lore that there are so many things that I can draw upon, from his jealousy of the other Robins to his animosity towards Bruce.

I think this goes to the heart of what you're getting at. Because he had bad parents, he must be bad. But look at Steph. Her dad was the Cluemaster. Her mom was also addicted to pills when we first met her. Her mom was also not the best in terms of parenting, either: Steph pretty much raised herself. And now she's BATGIRL.
What the writer doesn't understand is that Jason initially did overcome the adversity of living on the streets, having a mom who OD'd and a deadbeat dad. And, well, also, the writer obviously doesn't understand the character in general.

[arysteia]

You succeeded. Consider my mood brightened.

In that spirit, I point out the 'initially' in your final sentence, and wait with bated breath for Steph's inevitable descent to cackling rain of toads evil. Remember, being BATGIRL is no defence if you have criminal parents rather than a police commissioner. ;-p

[benicio127]

XD, like I said I try. (Sorry!!!)

Oh God.... your train of thought makes me really worry for Cass..... D: Cass, Cass who?

[irrelevant]

To throw this out there: Catherine might have been a drug addict because she was sick. Just saying.

[benicio127]

True. I kind of hope Winick gives us some flashbacks to Jason's time on the streets and more as Robin in this mini. I'd really love to see some of his time with Catherine, especially since he's said he kept her alive, etc. I think all of that, like sistermagpie said, fits in very nicely with his mother issues and the emotional reaction he has with abused women (which is why I think the tortured and mutilated Scarlet made a nice, if very brief, sidekick for him).

[sistermagpie]

Her being a good--or at least a loving--parent makes a lot more sense for his personality, imo. It sets him up to have a soft spot for mothers and try to save his bio mom even though she was a villain. And it gives him that feeling of RIGHT to hold on to. He wasn't a kid raised by all villains, he saw bad and then he had this spot of love that he wanted to protect at all costs, but couldn't.

That makes me think...The whole "your parent/s are evil/good and so you are evil/good" is incredibly stupid and misses the point, but there's a lot more interesting stuff if you consider the Batkids' relationship with their parents and how it mirrors the way they relate to the world.

[arysteia]

I can *sort of* see where the need for some bad, or at least pseudo-realistic, parents came from, namely the desire to step away from the near-canonised Waynes and Graysons. It's gone way too far though.

[bluefall]

Well, the girls offer plenty of dubious parentage; Steph (as ever) follows Jason in the "one criminal, one junkie," Helena has a mafioso wife abuser, Cass has two muderers... even Babs has her alcoholic bio-dad, and beyond Roger, Jim Gordon is a cheater and occasional failure as well as being the awesomeness we normally associate with him (one of many ways in which Tim is her proper mirror among the boys). Plenty of good vigorous bastards there, Cain and Shiva and the Bertinellis especially, and leaving Jason in the middle actually helped balance things. The family as a whole is overweighted toward unpleasant histories at the moment. (And what Morrison's done to Talia doesn't help, much though it pains me to include Damian.)

But then we all know the girls aren't really Bats and don't count, I guess.

[mad]

I haven't really been following Morrison's stuff lately. What's he done to Talia?

[benicio127]

He's made her Victor von Doom in a wig, basically. She's now completely evil and she had *something* implanted in Damian's spine so that Deathstroke could control him and kill Dick. I believe the reason was because she wants Damian to take over the Batman mantle and the Wayne family fortune.

Damian confronted her about it in the last issue and she told him he is now an enemy of the "house of al Ghul."

It seems like Morrison is making Talia evil to make Damian appear more sympathetic.

[benicio127]

That makes me think...The whole "your parent/s are evil/good and so you are evil/good" is incredibly stupid and misses the point, but there's a lot more interesting stuff if you consider the Batkids' relationship with their parents and how it mirrors the way they relate to the world.

Not only that, but he was also a kid who was raised by Bruce and Alfred for at least three years (in Batman Annual 12 he was in 7th grade, which puts him at 12 years old and he died at 15, IIRC) and they are good, loving parents.

But I completely agree on the "if you're parents are evil, therefore you are evil" point. It absolutely misses the point. Look at Cassandra. She rejected her father and mother's way of life.

And I always got the sense that Catherine was loving, but didn't necessarily make the best choices. Being a drug addict doesn't necessarily make her evil.

[mad]

I really like the OD version as well, because it also shows that Jason spent a year caring for her and trying to keep her alive.

Yeah, same. I feel like that really helped instill in Jason the need to take care of and/or protect those who may be vulnerable, as well as his impatience and hatred for people who take advantage of the vulnerable.

It's an interesting parallel to Bruce, too, in that Bruce himself obviously felt victimized and vulnerable because of his parents' deaths. But for Jason, losing his parents wasn't as quick. I mean, imagine if Bruce's mother hadn't died right away, and Bruce had to try and keep her alive for a while before help came, and then ultimately failed.

(Actually, now that I've said that, I could totally see Bruce being motivated to be a doctor if that had been the case, rather than be more like Jason. So I guess a big part of it is also the big discrepancy in class and privilege between them.)

[benicio127]

It's an interesting parallel to Bruce, too, in that Bruce himself obviously felt victimized and vulnerable because of his parents' deaths. But for Jason, losing his parents wasn't as quick


Yes, agreed completely. I'd love to see this explored further, or at least to see some flashbacks of his life taking care of Catherine and having to deal with the fact that his father was constantly in and out of jail.

I could totally see Bruce being motivated to be a doctor if that had been the case, rather than be more like Jason. So I guess a big part of it is also the big discrepancy in class and privilege between them

Absolutely. I think Morrison actually explored the idea that Bruce was a doctor in one of the R.I.P issues. I skimmed through them, hated them, but that bit caught my eye because of the BatCat <3 scene. (Selina is a patient of his and flirts with him. He's quite taken with her and later learns she's stolen something of his, I forget what though.)

[alienist]

I think you could classify addiction as a disease.

[whitesycamore.livejournal.com]

How creepy is Bruce in the last couple of panels of the second page?

Dark glasses, intense creepy stare, "I would like a print out on EEEEEVERYTHING you have on her!"

Oh Bruce, you are such a stalker.

[benicio127]

::nods:: Stalking is how Bats show love. ;-p

[whitesycamore.livejournal.com]

True, that.

[punishermax]

That blond in scan 2 is so happy.

"Golly! Today seems swell! Just gonna go get some smack and sell my ass on the street!"

[benicio127]

Yeah, she's really thinking: "Tra la la! All in a day's work! :-D :-D :-D"

Bwhaha! I'm not sure what to think of your sloppy joe icon in reference to this, either!! XD

[punishermax]

That's a Tony Luke cheesesteak man. The tastiest thing in all of the Eastern U.S.

[benicio127]

It looks like it could rival the donair, an eastern Canadian fatty staple!

[irrelevant]

Oh Jay. *grabs and hugs* *gets gut elbowed and instep stomped*

(Hey Morrison, see that hair? It's fucking black. And I don't think a street kid was dyeing his hair while living in a squat. So how about you cut the asinine "Oh Bruce made me" retcon BULLSHIT. Jason is not amused.)

[benicio127]

Hey Morrison, see that hair? It's fucking black. And I don't think a street kid was dyeing his hair while living in a squat. So how about you cut the asinine "Oh Bruce made me" retcon BULLSHIT.

Fuck yeah, this! Plus, Jason 1.0 was a totally different character! Different origin, different parents, different personality. Gar, Morrison! *shakes fist*

[shelleymaree]

YES THIS EXACTLY. Morrison is decent (read: hit or miss) with what he does, but he shouldn't be allowed to RETCON EVERYTHING.

Or have Superman sing away a crisis.

[benicio127]

Yeah, his *everything is continuity* thing is pretty stupid, especially since he picks and chooses what he wants to include.
Morrison, if you're gonna make DC your lover, then you just can't pick and choose what you like about her. You must like everything or really, only the things she tells you to like.

[shadowvalkyrie]

Jason 1.0 was a totally different character! Different origin, different parents, different personality.

That exactly. *shakes fist along with you*