Incredible Hulks #622

[sherkahn]

ComicBookResources has the preview of Incredible Hulks #622.

As the Hulk takes on the OTHER God of Thunder.



Ok, Zeus, that ain't the same Hulk you saw last time.
Smarter, craftier, tougher, and most important.. far, far stronger. It's the Worldbreaker. King Skaar.


Nothing of the humility learned under Hercules' care seemed to stick, I guess.
p.s., Zeus, Bruce is still carrying Bannertech on his person. You may wanna think about that.

Comments

[big_daddy_d]

Ok, the Hulk/Zeus smack talk made me lol.

[badficwriter]

It's cute. But I'm kinda tired of so-called gods being weaker than heroes. I mean, so Hulk can break a planet. So what?

[nezchan]

That's the thing, if you're gonna make gods, make them GODS, for crying out loud. Make Zeus someone who can make reality sit up and beg, and can make or unmake galaxies. Not just a powerful guy who doesn't die.

Zeus, of all people, should be able to defeat Hulk even with Bannertech. Otherwise, why should we care.

Oh, and the whole "it's impossible to defeat Hulk/he's immortal" thing never did sit well with me.

[badficwriter]

Eh, not being able to beat or kill Hulk doesn't really meet my notion of a god. Even a minor, old God is a concept, not a person, and should be able to curse silly non-gods with bizarre punishments.

They just need to quit insisting that people like Thor are gods. He's an avatar, no more the true god of thunder than my icon is the physical me. And while I'm complaining, making god-avatars at least as powerful as omega level mutants and reality warpers would be nice.

[fifthie]

I am personally pretty okay with Marvel not radically redefining its concept of how gods work and instead depicting them more or less as it has done for as long as it has been doing stories about gods.

And why would Thor of all characters be required to become a "concept"? Mythology showed him as an very human figure with very human flaws and failings, just as were the rest of his pantheon.

[tsunamiwombat]

Correct. Ancient mythological gods were essentially portrayed as people with magical powers. Superhero's are basically the equal of greek/roman/norse mythological figures.

What these folks are thinking of is the Zarathustran/Judeo/Christian concept of God, which is a single all powerful omnipotent creator being who exists on a cosmic level that is unpunchable. Originally, Gods were just a way of explaining natural phenominon and coming to grips with nature. Philsophy and the concepts of death, rebirth, creation, and omnipotence came later.

Hulk is, if nothing else, a really amped up giant/troll, and if you recall in Norse mythology, the Giants of Nifleheim totally kill alot of norse gods and are at perpetual war with them. And remember it is Surtr, a giant, that destroys the universe.

[arilou_skiff]

The thing is though, Zeus isn't just Zeus of Greek Myth: He's a Skyfather, which makes him pretty darn powerful in the MU scheme of things. Odin and Galactus clashed once and wiped out a galaxy as a side-effect.

[halloweenjack]

Frankly, that sounds like a really crappy story, on the order of the Marvel Team-Up where someone detaches Manhattan from its base (which is solid bedrock), tows it out to sea (again, bedrock), and Hercules finds chains somewhere that can take the weight of a seventeen-mile-long island (made of bedrock) and tows it back. How Manhattan fit through the Verrazano Narrows, and/or what that did to the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, was left unexplained.

The way that the gods of legend have always been portrayed in the MU have revolved around the fact that two of them, Thor and Hercules, have been part of the Avengers at different times, and they have to operate at that scale and be sufficiently challenged by menaces in that league, even if they're at the upper end of that scale. Sure, Odin or Zeus can have something equivalent to the Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic, but it kind of ruins it for the rest of them if Thor's dad has an I Win button.

[arilou_skiff]

It's... Really not the way it's usually portrayed. Odin and Zeus are generally quite a few steps above their sons.

[sherkahn]

Have to concur.

Skyfather/King/Rune Thor was a whole other power level above the one we have now.

[halloweenjack]

You can be quite a few steps above Thor and Hercules and still be nowhere near Galactus' league.

[baihu]

I JUST finished reading Neil Gaiman's American Gods, while I agree with your definition, I don't think it's really simple as that.

Also, I would argue that Hinduism, one of the oldest religions, had the concept of the cosmic triad of the Trimurti: Death, Preservation, and Creation; as well as the all-encompassing cosmic spirit Brahman, at a very early stage in overall global human civilization. The very concept of an incredibly huge pantheon which at the same time were defined as multi-facets of one supreme cosmic spirit is a wonderfully complex philosophy. Christianity came really late to the party on the 'omni-being' concept.

Nature is by its well, nature, about philosophy. Death, birth and creation (conception) were always a natural part of human life. Even animals think about death (social animals like apes, elephants, dolphins). We're selling humanity short if we think they didn't at least consider the deceased, in any way.

Though admittedly, religion and philosophy DO get dictated by the tribe's environment. There's a tribe on an island whose creation myth involves a lizard having sex with a civet cat to give birth to them, because in all honesty those were the two most obvious animals on their island. So it was kinda making do with what you've got.

Actually IMO, the most close to the idea that gods = humans with powers is really the Chinese religion/philosophy. The creation myths of Norse and Greek still attribute great creatures and beings in the conception of the world, and the gods are offspring of those creatures/beings.

Chinese creation myth is a bit muddier due to the big region and the many various creation myths from different regions, but the 'mortals with powers' concept has a stronger presence in their mythology.

Using the example of the 2 most dominant creation myths: Nuwa, the female half-serpent god-mother who created humanity by forming them from clay and eventually coiling rope through mud and flinging it. The carefully formed humans were superior (higher class) while the lower class humans were from the flung mud (commoners/peasants). Note however that at the same time, Nuwa saved the world by supporting the sky with the limbs of sacred Four Beasts; Turtle, Qilin (Unicorn), Dragon, and Phoenix. The world was being wrecked by the battle between the Fire Lord and the Water Lord (not gods, but similar in concept to Greek titans) who had knocked the Sky Pillar in their battle.

The 2nd most common creation myth is that of Pangu, the world giant. Hatched from a cosmic egg where half of the shell become the sky and the ground. He died and his body became the land, veins became rivers, fleas became animals, and hair became trees. VERY similar in concept to Norse's creation myth of the frost giant Ymir who also fell and his body formed the world. Humans formed from the his body AFTER.

What's important I want to point here is that humanity in both myths from China is considered one of the youngest creations. Animals and spirits and such were present in the land long before humanity's appearance. In the same way, while jin, spirits of various kinds were common, humanoid personification of gods came later.

In the Creation of the Gods literary work, it is recounted how basically the emperors, generals, concubines and other characters in the story (which is basically about war during the feudal lords' era), are reincarnated into a recognizable pantheon. This is made explicitly clear that they were to govern humanity, and their formation was made by a higher authority (almost like an author of the universe). This is where you get the Jade Emperor and such, and the heavenly gods appear largely like a bureaucratic palace system.

Of course, the book might be for political reasons, to make heaven reflect the real-world (at that time) political system of the Heavenly King appointed by a similar king/court in heaven. However, it's in Chinese culture to not really have gods of any kind that weren't in some form, mortal at one point. Many key immortal figures are great sages who meditate and advance into greater stages of power and enlightenment. And this isn't just relegated to humans, with many key characters being animals or inanimate objects who gain sentience and intelligence. Gaining superpowers is one of the bonuses.

This was a horribly OT rant though 8D

[badficwriter]

My problem is referring to vastly different entities by the same term "god." It loses meaning...Kinda like magic in general in comics. You got people yammering about blasphemy, then killing gods en mass, then bragging about killing gods, then begging gods for favors or blaming them for not magically fixing everything. It's nonsensical.

As for the mythology of Thor...mythology is just the fairy tales about gods. Those stories tell you nothing at all about how regular humans viewed them and what they expected from them. The stories of Asgardians were told by converted Christians, but we can guesstimate. Since even normal humans had invisible presences (spirits, souls, and guardians) it's silly to assume that Asgardians were the only ones who did not. Valkryies were certainly assumed to be around regularly at battlegrounds.

Gods are assumed to have transcendent existence, even if their daily activities are merely a spiritual equivalent of mundane life. Because of this existence, they can hear when worshippers or shamans or whatever appeal to them--why do so if they thought they had no such power? And why do so unless they felt these entities had some powers to intervene? Even if it's a very limited ability, like rain gods only being able to make it rain. Their beliefs about gods and the other supernatural entities told them which ones might answer and which ones wouldn't or couldn't, and which ones were just monsters.

[sherkahn]

And let's not forget that the Greek heroes and demi-gods were actually able to challenge and hurt the reigning pantheon (some of the Greek gods who took part in the Trojan War being an example). These are not all powerful beings without vulnerability.

[badficwriter]

I've gone on at length here.

As for the Greek gods, here is an old prayer. Sure, they could be hurt when they were foolish (Ares decided to fight in the Trojan army and was wounded), but does this sound like they thought he was just a superhuman?

Orphic Hymn 15 to Zeus (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) :
"O Zeus, much-honoured, Zeus supremely great, to thee our holy rites we consecrate, our prayers and expiations, king divine, for all things to produce with ease through mind is thine. Hence mother earth (gaia) and mountains swelling high proceed from thee, the deep and all within the sky. Kronion king, descending from above, magnanimous, commanding, sceptred Zeus; all-parent, principle and end of all, whose power almighty shakes this earthly ball; even nature trembles at thy mighty nod, loud-sounding, armed with lightning, thundering god. Source of abundance, purifying king, O various-formed, from whom all natures spring; propitious hear my prayer, give blameless health, with peace divine, and necessary wealth."

[khamelea]

I read somewhere that the ancient Greeks may have had a bit of a dual view of their gods. One one side you'd have had the myths, which were understood to be just stories, which are were the gods are portrayed as engaging in shenanigans; and you'd have had the religion's version of the gods.

That might reconcile the difference in tone and scope if it were true.

[badficwriter]

Yeah, it seems likely.

[arilou_skiff]

I actually thought this was pretty clever. Yes, Zeus can erase Hulk with a thought, but he won't.

Because he's a prideful douche.

[darkblade]

Less clever when the last arc in Incredible Hercules was all about Zeus learning humility.

[arilou_skiff]

Humility is a relative thing to a god.

[fifthie]

It's good to see tradition being upheld.

[blunderbuss]

I disagree, to be honest, because beings like that in a story universe have to be handled very carefully. You need to explain why they don't pull a Deus Ex Machina - which is a greek term - and fix all the story problems or become unbeatable villains. Especially since the Greek panthenon did meddle in human affairs all the time.

And besides, considering how many ancient gods were such TITANIC assholes, would you ever want to live in a universe where they unstoppable? Even in this scan alone they're being such smug pricks I want Hulk to beat their asses.

[mullon]

Love Hulk's trollface.

[crinos]

Okay, someone needs to shop that panel with the Hulk saying "U MAD?"

Ask and ye shall receive

[twomasks]

Re: Ask and ye shall receive

[crinos]

Much obliged sure.

Re: Ask and ye shall receive

[crinos]

I mean sir (Or Madam).

Re: Ask and ye shall receive

[mullon]

Yoink! (Thanks)

[icon_uk]

There's a lot of John Byrne's style in it, which works IMHO.

[sinisterlink]

I'm just gonna ignore the Hulk stuff and say that I love seeing Zeus and Hera together as an actual couple instead of how it used to be with him cheating on her and being a jackass all the time while she got angry and ran around trying to kill everyone.

[baihu]

This in MU or you mean like, in general?

I don't really care what Zeus has done in MU, but as long as they don't bring it up, him raping mortals as a swan, or a bull, or a bloody freaking SUNBEAM is by association, totally in-canon.

[icon_uk]

Can all those be quantified as rape though? I don't recall any mention of Danae being unreceptive to a bit of sex with a sunbeam for example.

[baihu]

Which leads to the question. Is the condom for sunbeam sex obviously, sunblock? o_0

[screamsheet.wordpress.com]

Well, the Incredible Hercules did feature child-Zeus flirting with Athena, so...

[baihu]

Just need clarification, is the old MU explanation that the 'gods' on earth are really 'space beings' who descended on primitive earth and were molded into current shape and function by the belief of collective humanity in whatever region they happened to be in, still the defacto explanation?

I always liked that explanation to be honest. Loved it how in like, that series with dystopian Marvel future with Loki realizing this and trying to make the other gods in Hel realize they are only dead because they were made to believe they were so, or that their function and entire being was also formed this way. Props to him not going really BSOD over the whole revelation, though they still couldn't beat the Celestials.

[icon_uk]

MU Odin has, in the past, claimed to have created humanity, so he's either incredibly powerful, or dangerously delusional.

[baihu]

But isn't humanity creation all Celestial? Or Gaia? Or...something to do with Set and whatever.

I have one of the old old MU comics, maybe too old to be relevant, but it depicts how the ape-like precursors of humanity, acting the part of Adam and Eve if they were half-ape cavepeople, enter the valley which was the cradle of their creation aka the Garden of Eden. Then they meet the last remaining Serpentmen who worship Set there who try to bluff them into thinking they're another tribe of ape-people and try to convince them to kill their own tribe because the Celestials are coming to judge the sentient races.

They refuse, and both tribes fight. Eventually the Celestials land, and with Gaia the earthmother, the judger gathers up the worthy ape-people and does the genetic tinkering to add in the latent 'supermutant' gene and create the two offshoots Eternals and Deviants. With the last batch with the supergene left to evolve to humanity.

Serpentmen get blasted by a laserbeam.

Afterwards the story links up with like, the Conan mythos, and then onto the Crown of Set saga.

So does this origin still hold or has it been retconned/forgotten?

[icon_uk]

No idea for a good chunk of it, but Celestials experimented on the existing native life forms on early Earth, creating the Eternals, the Deviants, and adding the mutation causing X-gene to normal humans.

Odin literally claimed to have created the entire human race.

[bruinsfan]

But the other pantheons have similar creation myths-the Greek one having been reiterated by Hera during the Incredible Hercules series not that long ago. I think it's probably a case of the various gods coming to believe their own PR more than anything else.

I've seen a time-travel story that featured proto-human hominids being menaced by Shuma-Gorath millions of years ago, supposedly long before the Celestials first visited. Gaea's probably the only Marvel Universe god that actually had anything to do with the origin of humanity, and that likely through natural selection rather than just creating people out of clay or thin air or whatever.