Amazing Spider-Man #620, #621

[stolisomancer]

In today's post about the latest issue of Amazing Spider-Man, cuntfucius points out that, if you ignore how hard they're trying to sell her, Carlie has potential. I'd been meaning to post from these issues anyway, so here are a few pages from before Carlie was the Designated Girlfriend, when she's actually pretty decent.


At the start of the post-OMD Amazing Spider-Man books, Carlie was just one character out of a couple of dozen who were phased into the book over the course of a couple of years. Some were returning members of Peter's old supporting cast, who'd been neglected or ignored by JMS, like Glory Grant or Betty Brant; some were brand-new characters, like Yuri Watanabe or Vin and Michelle Gonzalez. Carlie began her run as a police contact for Spidey.

The three-part story "Mysterioso," in Amazing #618-#620, is one of the high points of the post-"One More Day" era, with great art by Marcos Martin. Mysterio has been making a lucrative living on the side by faking mobsters' deaths, and now that Mr. Negative is making heavy inroads into the Maggia's New York territory, all those big-name mob guys are coming out of "retirement" to put the Maggia back on top. This includes Carlie's late father, Ray, who reappears at the same time.




Ouch.

A couple of issues later, the story's been wrapped up. Mysterio's plans got foiled, as they do, but Ray Cooper didn't get picked up with the rest of the Maggia. While Peter's off getting punched through buildings by Mr. Negative, Carlie wraps things up on her own.





They're pushing Carlie way, way too hard in ASM right now, but in these slightly earlier issues, when she's just one member of a large supporting cast, this is a pretty good moment for her.

After this, Carlie doesn't show up at all for a good half-dozen issues, until she and Peter have a not-date in the first chapter of "Shed."

The lesson I'm taking away from all of this, which I figure Slott would do well to remember, is that the harder you try to get your readers to like a character, the less they actually will.

Comments

[shadowpsykie]

as much as i didn't want to like Carlie then (the wounds of BND still fresh) she WAS badass... but yeah now... i will have none of that

[mistervader]

That's actually pretty cool of Carlie right there. I mean, I wouldn't exactly blame her if she looked the other way for her dad, given the moral qagmire most BND characters find themselves in, so this was one of those few stellar moments.

[sadoeuphemist]

Oh wow, that's fuckin' hardcore.

[cuntfucius]

THANK YOU for this!! I think even in carlie's current interactions with MJ, when they're not doing weird "MJ HAS JEALOUS THOUGHTS!!" crap, also show how she can geekishly shine when she's not thrown in love interest mode. Her work in forensics, her pragmatism, and just what a totally ...unglorious nerd she can be is why she'd work outside of his love interest and why they shouldn't throw the character away if/when they break this relationship up (unless they'll only use her to be Peter's old flame).

[stillanerd]

Yes, I agree that this was definitely a defining moment in Carlie Cooper's development as a character. Unfortunately, it was also the ONLY defining moment in Carlie's Cooper's development as a character (aside for becoming Peter's new girlfriend, that is). Not only has Carlie arresting her own father never made mention of again, it was shortly after this that Carlie's status as a "Mary Sue" started getting kicked into overdrive, and in this very issue, no less.

After a bruised Peter goes back to his apartment, Carlie is waiting for him and, although she planned to chew him out, after seeing he's hurt feels sorry enough for him that she decides to give him one last chance. Peter notes how Carlie seems to be a lot more confident and Carlie explains she "went through a Gauntlet." When Peter tells her that he understands the feeling, she tells him:

No, you don't. When you do it right. . . it makes you stronger, You just have to reach the other side.'

And remember, she's telling this to a guy whose parents died, whose uncle who was murdered, whose one true love was murdered by the father of his best friend (a girl Carlie also happened to be childhood friends with, no less), who had to take care of his widowed, heart-attack prone aunt financially all through high school and college (not to mention who was believed to have died twice), and also thought he lost another girlfriend/wife in an airplane explosion--and that's all public knowledge about Peter and not even beginning to touch all the hell he's gone through as Spider-Man.

[stolisomancer]

Does Carlie know all that, though?

[stillanerd]

And that is a fair point, considering that she certainly has no idea that Peter is Spider-Man. And yes, since she hadn't known Peter for very long up to this point, she could also be forgiven for not being too aware of some of the things Peter has gone through outside of being Spider-Man, as well. However, the problem for me is that Carlie just naturally assumed she's had tougher experiences than Peter ever has had to face or could possibly relate to, and that even though she doesn't know the full story, she's being portrayed as being in the right regardless.

[stolisomancer]

Since Peter isn't a cop, I think she's probably pretty safe in assuming that he's never A) found out his dead father had faked his death, B) found out his dead father was a dirty cop, and C) had to arrest his father the dirty cop.

Yes, Carlie looks vaguely silly to us the readers, because we know that Peter's been through stuff that makes that look straightforward ("Oh, hey, that's cute, Carlie. Call me when your long-dead parents, the secret agents, come back as androids."), but from her perspective, she's on her own with this one and Peter's sympathy is misplaced. The scene as written is awkward, yeah, but it's not hard to see where Carlie's coming from.

[stillanerd]

And those are, indeed, all fair points. Plus, I think it's understandable that, given what she's gone through, she would be a little self-righteous and judgmental in spite of the fact that she's also intelligent and compassionate; even characters who are "good guys" do have flaws. It's just, like I said, it's as though she was being cast as being entirely in the right even though we, the readers, knew better, and that it was shortly after this is when we really started seeing various characters--including Mary Jane--tell us about her more virtuous qualities that made her such a "perfect" girlfriend for Peter in spite of not being shown them. Then again, that was mainly compounded more by the rotating creative teams under "Brand New Day" more than anything.

[stolisomancer]

Yeah, and that goes back to the issue of presentation. I think you're probably right in that this is at or near the beginning of the big push for her, which has had the unfortunate side effect of really making her characterization irrelevant. She's annoying regardless of her individual qualities because she's being shoehorned.

There was a point where Carlie was okay, though, and it's possible she could reach that point again once the push wears off.

[fifthie]

She couldn't have asked?

[stolisomancer]

At this point in the book, she doesn't actually know Peter all that well. As far as Carlie knows, he's that frequently-unemployed slacker who used to hang out with Harry. She might know about his photography background or his past affiliation with the Bugle, but they've almost never had an uninterrupted conversation. I'm not even sure they've even had a date at this point that wasn't broken off due to Spider-antics.

[fifthie]

So... she couldn't have asked?

[fifthie]

I mean in your charitable version of all of this, she is basically writing herself a tragedy-free background of this relative stranger's life based on him having job problems and being kind of flakey, so that she can deliver this highly douchey lecture.

If you don't know someone's life experience, that is exactly the circumstance under which you do not say this kind of thing to them, because if you do, and your assumptions are totally wrong, then you are a jerk.

[stolisomancer]

What's your point? If she's a jerk in the scene, she's a jerk; I'd argue that if you're ever entitled to a free pass for jerkdom, it's the night after you arrested your father, while you're talking to somebody you're still kind of pissed off with.

Besides, it's not like she's going to sit down with Peter and compare emotional scars before she vents at him. "Hey, Pete, before I talk about my day, is there any chance you have any personal trauma directly related to parental abandonment, or perhaps the sudden loss of what turned out to be a cherished illusion?" Nobody does that.

[icon_uk]

If she'd said "I really hope you don't know that feeling" and Peter had replied "I hope that too, but I didn't get to choose", then that would be a more cautious, less presumptive situation. Carlie would be showing an awareness of others, Peter wouldn't be browbeating her with his tragedy, just reminding her that unspeakable emotional crap can happen to anyone, at any time.


She works for the Police, to borrow a phrase from CSI, she generally see's people "on the worst day of their lives". She knows the appalling tragedy that can afflict even the most "ordinary" and innocent people. She's automatically assuming Peter has never had that sort of experience, when she should perhaps know better than most, that anyone could.

[stolisomancer]

It's a silly criticism, particularly since she's a medical examiner, not a street cop. The basic gist of the scene being discussed is this:

CARLIE: Peter, whatever burgeoning relationship we've had seems to be based upon you only calling me when you need something, and making up excuses to ignore me the rest of the time. You're not a bad guy, though, and I'm pretty sure you're not doing it on purpose. I'm willing to give you one more chance.
PETER: Okay. Wow, you're more decisive than usual.
CARLIE: I've been through a lot today. I decided to try and learn from it instead of letting it bother me.
PETER: I know that feeling.
CARLIE: I am really not in the mood for sympathy right now, Peter, even if I thought for a second you had a remotely analogous experience to me having to arrest my father.

She's laying down the law because she feels she's been wronged. As readers, we know that it's the old "Parker Luck" routine, where he has to abandon his personal life at a moment's notice because he has to go be heroic, but from her perspective, Peter's either a well-meaning flake or a manipulative prick. Carlie is under no particular obligation to consider Peter's feelings in this scene, because her stated goal in the conversation is to tell him that she's not going to take any shit from him anymore.

[auggie18]

Wow. This is...really badass. I would've never suspected it.


Damn, I want to read more about this girl.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Wait... if what I've heard is true...

Does this mean she just busted Joe Quesada?

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[hyperactivator]

This just shows how poopy the writeing is for her now a days. She has all this potential but instead of actually showcaseing her they focus one Mary Jane.

Sure all she can talk about is Carlie but it's still from MJ's POV. You know who gets POV? Main characters! Give Carlie a subplot and let us in her head every now and then.

[valtyr]

She's pretty cool. I'd be okay with her hooking up with Peter, except I've seen it and I'm not.

[stolisomancer]

Yeah, pretty much. She actually had Johnny Storm as her date for May's wedding in #600, which was pretty entertaining.