DETECTIVE COMICS # 875

[superfangirl1]

We learn more of jim jr past: such as a young boy he had a diagnostic evaluation at Arkham Asylum, was suspected of sending a football player to the hospital by unknown means and the disappearance of Barbara friend.

James Gordon wonders if the incident where he was dropped from a bridge as a baby and not being there for him while growing up had anything to do with jim jr unusualness.

Comments

[icon_uk]

Did James Jr just refer to his mother as "Mrs Gordon"?

[misterbug]

ADOPTIVE Mother, Sarah Gordon, nee Essen. His birth Mum is either dead or divorced, I forget which.

Although the above pages confuse me - I thought Babs was born after Jim jr. was?

[icon_uk]

I gave up trying to work out how the localised time dilation eddies in Gotham affect the relative rate of ageing of many the inhabitants, sometimes within the same family.

[darkknightjrk]

James' birth mother, Barbara, divorced Jim and left him for Chicago, taking James with her.

And considering how smaller James looks, I think it's still established that Barbara is older than James.

[espanolbot]

Barbara is technically only Jim's adopted daughter, while bing his biological niece, she was already about 12...ish when she moved to Gotham to stay with Jim after her biological father and mother died in a carcrash.

At least this is how it used to be, and in one of Jim Sale's post-Long Halloween stories (so... Batman year... three or so?) it had Babs moving to Gotham to live with Jim, and she was already in either her early teens or something.

[darkknightjrk]

That doesn't sound like those two need to contradict--early teens are around 13, so having Barbara be around 12-14 and James around 7 or 8 would work.

Granted, there are some continuity boo-boos in this issue, such as Sarah being James' wife that close to the "Year One" era when she married him around Knightfall, but the ages probably could work if you squint at them at the right way.

[icon_uk]

Thinking about it, that actually doesn't work timewise. Gordon only married Essen when Babs was already in a wheelchair and had been Oracle for some years. There's no logical way that Babs should be mobile when she would have been "Mrs Gordon"

[corrinal]

Yeah, that doesn't work. Jim and Sarah married when James Jr. was approximately eight or so (James was kidnapped again around the planning of their wedding). But at the time, Babs was already in a wheelchair.

Forget it. It's just too confusing time-wise. Chalk it up either to retcon punch or Superman singing the world back to life.

[jaybee3]

I was thinking that too. By the time Sara married Jim, Barbara's Batgirl days were behind her. There's no way she would look like a teenager. It isn't inconceivable that Barbara is 10+ years older than Jim Jr. (especially if the adoption story is intact) so unless this is a subtle retcon I don't get it.

[benicio127]

Babs.... is technically Jim's niece, her parents died and Jim adopted her, making him her adoptive father.

[kamino_neko]

Divorced. And still alive at this point in the story, at least. Another scene is her calling Jim to thank him for taking James on this trip.

[whitesycamore]

I love the way the red and blue light is used in this; it really gives an eerie feeling to these pages.

James Gordon wonders if the incident where he was dropped from a bridge as a baby and not being there for him while growing up had anything to do with jim jr unusualness.

Could I trouble someone to explain this? I think I'd feel a lot better about this arc if I understood more about why Jim jr might be the way he is. I think I've mentioned it before, but something about the lone, mysteriously evil member of the family plot device always upsets me. I just... I just want everyone to be happy, dammit.

[icon_uk]

"Batman: Year One" had baby James dropped from a bridge by the bad guy and saved by Batman. Traumatic moments all round.

[whitesycamore]

Oh yes! I remember now. I'm assuming Gordon is worried about physical trauma, i.e. brain damage, rather than emotional?

I find that a more credible explanation of why Jim jr became a sociopath than because something scary happened to him before he could really understand or remember it.

[benicio127]

Well.... that's the thing. We don't know what has caused his potential sociopath-ness. In this issue, his mom talks about bringing him for tests and they talk about how they knew something was off with him from the beginning. But... it doesn't necessarily mean he's *bad* --- that's what we don't know.
He talks more about it in Tec 874 (aka my everyone should be reading this title!!!! spiel) in a restaurant scene with Jim. Really, really, really great 10 pages or so, very creepy and moody

[whitesycamore]

So there's some ambiguity about whether he's actually a bad guy or not?

It sounds like this story line is a lot more interesting than I gave it credit for. I really don't want Jim jr to be evil.* For some reason I always feel a lot of empathy for characters who are alienated from their families.

*Although then again, I always seem to feel way more innate empathy towards bad characters than I do towards good ones... Er, don't go reading anything weird into that. >_>

[benicio127]

Yep, there's quite a bit of ambiguity. In the last issue, Jim and James are sitting down at a diner and James is talking about how he's on meds, etc. for his diagnosis of sociopathy (IIRC, though I don't have it in front of me as to the exact word he uses).
James makes this extraordinarily morbid comment about how he cut off the waitress's head and stuffed it in the toilet and then says, I'm kidding. And the whole time, there is water slowly coming from the bathroom door as they talk. When James leaves, Jim goes to check the bathroom and finds the taps running.
(I'm not doing the best job of describing it, but it's fucking creepy and so well done.)
Anyways, that's some of the gist of the ambiguity presented in James Jr.'s story.

[whitesycamore]

...It would actually be really sad if James was just a weird guy who doesn't 'get' people, and makes jokes like that because he's frustrated with how other people perceive him as creepy.

See, the way Jim and Babs were talking about him earlier in the arc I thought he was already a confirmed villain. If he's *not* then the way they react to him seems more than a little unfair.

[benicio127]

See, the way Jim and Babs were talking about him earlier in the arc I thought he was already a confirmed villain. If he's *not* then the way they react to him seems more than a little unfair.

Or is it? That's what we don't know at this point. And Babs isn't actually being mean to him, I don't think. I mean... I think she's being a teen girl and wanting to hang out with her friend and not her weird little stepbrother/cousin.

And do you mean... Barbara? Like... Jim's ex-wife? Because I don't think Babs has talked about him at all at this point yet, but Jim in #874 mentioned that Babs doesn't trust James.

[whitesycamore]

And Babs isn't actually being mean to him, I don't think. I mean... I think she's being a teen girl and wanting to hang out with her friend and not her weird little stepbrother/cousin.

No, I don't think she's being mean here at all! Or as an adult, really. I just meant that, if James wasn't known to actually be dangerous then their exaggerated horror at his return was a bit weird, considering that they deal with much more overtly frightening people on a daily basis.

Their reaction is why I assumed at first that James was already known to be very dangerous, beyond any reasonable doubt.

[benicio127]

Ahhhh OK, I get you. Yeah, I mean on the one hand, it really does seem way over the top, but I think that's what Snyder is playing with, right? In one interview, he says, "James is just a guy in glasses." I think he's playing with that whole element of how we're taught to be afraid of the strangers who might hurt us, but not the people we actually know hurting us.

[whitesycamore]

I think he's playing with that whole element of how we're taught to be afraid of the strangers who might hurt us, but not the people we actually know hurting us.

It's an interesting idea, it just seems a little harsh because in this instance the stranger is actually her brother. It's potentially even sadder because he seems like he's quite fond of her too - or as fond as a creepy little kid like that can be...

[benicio127]

Oh I agree, it does seem harsh, especially as we don't have all the facts before us.

[whitesycamore]

And do you mean... Barbara? Like... Jim's ex-wife? Because I don't think Babs has talked about him at all at this point yet, but Jim in #874 mentioned that Babs doesn't trust James.

Wait - really?! I could have sworn I read some pages of Babs reminiscing about James. Maybe it was actually Barbara senior... In which case ignore my earlier reply!

[benicio127]

Hmm.... I don't think it was Babs, to the best of my knowledge? Or maybe... yeah might have been from 871. I think she and Jim were sitting in a diner talking about James. Is that what you're thinking of, maybe? So maybe you are right, actually! I don't remember the exact exchange between her and Jim in 871 ^_^

[swatkat]

The continuity is weird in this issue, but I loved it. Chilling and noir.

[technacothaka]

Am I the only person who couldn't give a shit about Jim Jr?

[thebigapricot]

Well, given the motto of this community, I highly doubt it. But while I don't particularly want to see him as an ongoing character the impact the character is having on the book is amazingly good. The last issue featuring a conversation between Jim Sr. and Jim Jr. may be some of the best pages you'll see in comics this year.

Snyder is doing very, very strong work here.

[swatkat]

I'm not sure he'd make a good on-going villain. But right now, for this run, he's utterly brilliant.

[benicio127]

I'm.... not really sure if the point of this story is to make him an ongoing villain. I think this is just a really well-done story about Jim Gordon and someone who's really close to him that he can't "solve" despite being the great detective he is.

[jaybee3]

I'm not sure I like DC making family members of their longest standing families into villains. James Jr. is a sociopath, Lucy Lane is transformed from an everyday stewardess/mom into "Superwoman" with Kryptonian powers to be a foil for Supergirl, Todd/Rice/Obsidian makes semi-periodic turns as a super-villain, Sam Lane was transformed from a gruff (and caring) war hero into a genocidal xenophobic madman, Cobalt Blue was supposedly Barry Allen's twin brother, and on and on. It's just too simplistic and occasionally (especially in the Lucy Lane case) seems contrived and lazy writing.

[espanolbot]

Don't forget the brief "was Thomas Wayne EVIL!!!" thing back when people were trying to work out if Dr Hurt was actually Bruce's dad or not.

Obviously he wasn't, but it's still there.

[mistersandman]

Batwoman's archenemy Alice also turned out to be her crazy twin sister. Is it me or have a lot of these evil family members cropped up in the past two-three years?

[starwolf_oakley]

Well, keep in mind, Dan DiDio used to work on soap operas.

[espanolbot]

Possibly a little further back, if you count Cass going evil to murder/boink Tim Drake back in 2005 or so.

[whitesycamore]

I definitely don't like it. Not only do I agree that it's lazy writing, I also just find it really disturbing how many of these supposedly close, wholesome, supportive families have.. whoops, one randomly evil and/or crazy member!

It lacks emotional realism, and the explanations for the evil never feel very satisfying. Really, it usually only serves to underscore how dramatically black-and-white the DCU's morality is.

I realise the irony in using an icon of my favourite totally OOT evil, no, don't bother asking why, she just *is* character for this comment.

[thebigapricot]

But we don't know whether James is evil. Both times Jim has suspected him of being so, it's bee proven he's not.

[whitesycamore]

Yes, benicio127 and I discussed that earlier up-thread. Either way, I was actually responding to this line of jaybee3's post -

I'm not sure I like DC making family members of their longest standing families into villains. -

in a general sense; I wasn't saying that this specific instance was an example of lazy writing

[arysteia]

While I don't disagree, especially with regard to the lazy writing, don't people also usually complain that in DC evil is in your genes? Ie, kids of villains are doomed? It's sometimes nice to see the "good" families throw up a nasty one too.

[jarodrussell]

I've only seen seven or so pages of him, and he's already five times more interesting than Barbara.

Can he be the new Calculator, please? Slash Kutler's throat and when someone asks why he can point to the Oracle icon and say, "I can make my own fun," because hot damn, I would read that comic.

As it is, I'll get this when I'm sure it doesn't end with J.J. dead.

[mullon]

This feels really cliche.

[recognitions]

Well, even if he isn't evil now, he will be eventually.

[mistersandman]

Ouch. That is a really, really depressing point.