Date: 2012-02-10 04:26 am (UTC)
aeka: (Catwoman [happy kitty]:)
From: [personal profile] aeka
Correction: this is Batman and Robin #6. :P

But back to the main point, I actually liked this issue and particularly loved Bruce and Damian's characterisations.

Also, am I the only one thinking this week is “Bat-children Killing Government Figures Who Are Human Traffickers Week?” I can't be the only who's noticed this week's books featured at least one panel that showed both of Bruce's biological children threatening to kill a government figure, who also happens to be a human trafficker.

Date: 2012-02-10 04:29 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i have little to no sympathy for human traffickers.... they can burn for all i care...

Date: 2012-02-10 04:51 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] gerardotejada
And that is what separates Batman from the Punisher, you cant decide who get to live and die without becoming some sort of Mark Millar's character. Besides there are worst fate than death... Do you know what they do to this guys in prision? And Im not talking about the guards, a man who stole a bank still have a moral sense to apply some "justice".

Date: 2012-02-10 04:58 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
woah woah woah, i am not talking Millar shit right here, hell even the punisher might think millar is too much.. i'm talking the worst of the worse. I had no problem with Helena killing that chairman. the joker should have been killed ages ago. it's like Helena, Jason (though current Jason is decidedly less kill crazy), Damian (when he first arrived) Punisher, then Millar.

i have always had a problem with the no kill rule. like Wonder Woman, or captain america, or any soldier. they avoid killing when need be, but when they have to kill, they kill no hesitation. (okay Helena "killing" the chairman is not the same)

but i see your point... stick one of those people in prison and let "prison justice": have its way.

Date: 2012-02-10 05:20 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] gerardotejada
I think Jason Todd is very Millarish. I think the No Killing rule is to depower the characters a little bit, Batman dont kill because of psichiatric problems, Superman cant kill because that wpuld gave him too much power. Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, even Kyle Rayner have kill, but only in exeption or war like situations. Even Helena was emotionally driven and not a cold killer.

I have one thing about the joker, he is a psychiatric case that could lead any scientist to win the Nobel prize if they can explain his mind. Is the only explanation, any other criminal in Arkaham is "treatable" two-face was good for a couple of months, the mad hatter is not as psycothic as he used to be, Scarcrow is obsesed wit fear etc.

But If they Kill the Joker they would have to kill Bruce too

Date: 2012-02-10 05:34 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
maybe previous Jason, but the current Jason doesn't kill needlessly. he'll beat them to a pulp, but i don't think he has killed that many people in recent DCnU

Date: 2012-02-10 10:59 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I'm not sure I'd say Batman doesn't kill because of psiyhiatric problems. He doesn't use GUNS because of that, but his decision never to kill is a very definite and rational choice.

He believes in the justice system, imperfect as it is, and see's his job as delivering the criminals into that system, not completely subverting the system by becoming judge, jury and executioner. (If he really didn't believe in killing he'd need to confront the fact that Gotham is a death-penalty state, and that when he delivers a murderer (or similar) into the system then he is essentially enabling their state-sanctioned death)

Date: 2012-02-10 03:32 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Really, no-kill rules are only so weird because of how the comic justice system works.

Namely, they have a death penalty but never use it on the big, extremely murderous villains. Nor does anyone else ever try to kill them.

It's like everyone else decided, "Well, Batman doesn't kill the Joker, so I, a guard/police officer/judge/jury person shouldn't either!".

Date: 2012-02-10 03:46 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
I'm sure many of those people ask themselves "What Would Batman Do?" for every major decision.

Date: 2012-02-10 05:35 pm (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
Wait... Wonder Woman is now officialy considered to be one of the killing heroes?


Its kind of funny how being annoyed by someone killing people makes your own urge to kill grow.

Date: 2012-02-10 05:44 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
wonder woman has always been a character who was willing to kill. it was always her last resort. She killed Maxwel Lord. Before that she killed Medusa, and other "monsters" though alot of these monsters were Human-like and no one seemed to mind her doing that.

wonder woman is a warrior, she does not like to kill, she does not want to kill, it does not mean she will hesitate to kill if you pose a great enough threat to other people.

Date: 2012-02-10 06:43 pm (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
Please. Dont. Ever. Bring that Maxwell Lord bulshit up. Look, I like you, I really do, But do not ever use that as an example of defending writers doing something with Wonder Woman. I am not comanding you. I am begging you. Please

And by "always" you mean 7 years of character, that has been there for 70 years?

Date: 2012-02-10 06:59 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
ummmm wonder woman killed Nazis in her first appearance... i am sorry, but destroying tanks and submarine's like that.... those people died. so yes. from the very begining, wonder woman was one of the characters who would be willing to kill.

the "Sacrifice" story line, was one of my favorites, but i won't talk about it with you if you don't want. it didn't start there, Rucka showed Diana as a hero who was willing to kill.

but like a said, if you are going to go back 70 years into history, then yes... wonder woman has been a character who has always been willing to kill when it was necissary. its not anything new. she would avoid it to the best of her abilities, but if it came down to it, she would kill.

Date: 2012-02-10 07:24 pm (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
You mean like Batman? And in Golden Age, all Superheroes were basicly the smae characters, just with diffrent powers.

I have not yet read Ruckas run on the book.

Yep. Thats why she refused to kill much worse people than Maxwell Lord in the past. Even though she was almost exactly the same situation with Circe, expect it was far worse. And stop saying killing Maxwell Lord was necessary. It wasnt. Even Greg Rucka said that.

Date: 2012-02-10 07:31 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
And stop saying killing Maxwell Lord was necessary. It wasnt. Even Greg Rucka said that.

i don't want to argue about this... this is a matter of opinion ours differ, lets leave it at that...i do ask you this... please do not tell me what to think...

“You mean like Batman? And in Golden Age, all Superheroes were basicly the smae characters, just with diffrent powers.”

YOU brought up 70 years of history, that INCLUDES the golden age. and it is NOT the only time she has killed before Rucka's run.

here is a list of, or rather a discussion of several instances where Diana has killed, or permited a villian to die.
CBR did a more comprehensive list.

Date: 2012-02-10 07:57 pm (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
I agree. this is matter of opinion. Sorry. But tell me, Why it was necesarry? Why couldnt Diana knock him out, and ask Zatanna to mind wipe him? Or use her lasso to show him how stupid his plan was and that the earth would be doomed without superheroes.
How is Maxwell Lord, no matter how out of character and nonsensical him being evil was, in anyway worse than Circe or Neron?

BTW, I wanted to say Phil Jimenez. Dont know why I said Rucka.

You are right, I was stupid for saying killing. I meant murdering. I promise I will try to think more about what I am writing, before I post coment.

When I was talking about 70 years, I was refereing to your examples.

Date: 2012-02-10 08:14 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
then this is a different conversation now.

as far as Max lord we are going to come to a difference of oppinions. I don't see it as Murder. it seems like you do. he had told her in no uncertain terms that no matter what she did, he wormed his way into superman's psyche little by little over the years. he has complete control of him and told her that all he needed was a moment. she could knock him out, but the second he woke up, it would start all over again and this time he would go for Lois, or Etta, or any of bruce's family. Mind wiping him might work, but all those mind wipes wore off and the moment it did. he would do it again. je was a ticking bomb. so she defused him.

also how is mind winpe different than killing him. to remove THAT, would essentially be killing him.

so she made an in the moment decision, and stood by it.

Date: 2012-02-10 05:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] gerardotejada
This is the damian I know.
I dont know about Damian, but I felt horribly hurt when he said "we are only sons", It really piss me off What about Tim and Cass? What about good old dick?
I bet Damian wasnt happy either.

And Bruce dont need a stupid surrogate father He has Alfred! No one is more awsome than Alfred!

Now Is time to kick some ass, this is the Damian I like.

Date: 2012-02-10 02:19 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I doubt we should be taking Nobody quite so seriously when it comes to what he felt was the nature of the relationship between Bruce and his father. Methinks there are some heavy unreliable narrator bits going on.

Date: 2012-02-10 05:54 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Robin/Damian Wayne)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
What surprised me is seeing tears in Damian's eyes. I've seen moments of growth and vulnerability from him before but not like this. This was pleasantly surprising and it said all. He's a young man with a lot of anger, arrogance, and a wall built around him, but he wants a good relationship with his father. I often talk about how I wish Dick was still his partner because he's good for him and he is. Dick is someone who showed him trust and gave him a chance. Got him to open up more and embrace friends, but now that I read this I realize now more than ever, this boy needs his father. True growth will start there. He needs to know love as vulnerability. After that, being humble, nicer, etc. It will all fall into place.

Date: 2012-02-10 10:54 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I don't think he specifically needs his father, he needs someone to accept him, love him and guide him. The fact that his father CAN do it, doesn't make it an exclusive role (as Dick more than amply proved).

As I've said before, if the Batclan have proved anything over the years, it's that familal roles have bugger all to do with blood-ties.

Date: 2012-02-10 12:55 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
The little kick in the gut I felt seeing the snot nose punk that is Damien cry is pretty much everything brilliant about the characters. Morison did such a great job creating a character who so perfectly rides the line of being irritating and the wooby at the same time. I really love Damien.

Date: 2012-02-10 04:09 pm (UTC)
aeka: Art by Adam Hughes (Huntress [Helena Wayne]:)
From: [personal profile] aeka
I felt this was a nice development for him too and hope to see more of this in future issues.


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