Cass vs. Ollie: Round Two

[espanolbot]

With their secret mission in South America continuing, Cass recognises that she won't be able to get anything done with Ollie constantly sniping at her verbally and proclaiming who he can't work with a "murderer" (despite him having killed various people himself). So she decides to allow him to work his feelings out...




This over with, Ollie just proceeded to bug everyone else on the team instead of Cass, and generally act like an exaggerated version of himself. Including breaking into Wayne Manor after Bruce "died" and pinching things from his wine cellar, which I guess is fair enough, what with Bruce being Teetotal and all.

Also this series did also bring in Cass making her superhero team, the Network, though Dick and Barbara appeared to hijack after Cass'd done most of the legwork and it was promptly forgotten about after Battle of the Cowl was over. Which is kind of a shame, as it had Cass and Steph's first meeting since the latter heroine's "death" and could have been a chance for the pair to potentially star in a book together.

And then Cass was ejected from the book entirely, despite being the only one to hang around after RIP and their friendly OMAC exploding due to the Black Glove's tomfoolery, just so that Dan Didio wouldn't have to write her in "his" version of the team.

Oh well.

Comments

[icon_uk]

So were ever supposed to remotely be on Ollie's side at any point in his appearances here? I'm genuinely curious.

"Sanctimonious hypocritical pillock" is perhaps the politest term I can use for him here and I've already edited it twice because the terms that first occurred would probably have got me into trouble here.

[espanolbot]

When Kevin Smith wrote him it was more a case of him having poor impulse control and something of a chip on his shoulder... with other writers though, they just interpretted this as him being a raging jackass.

[icon_uk]

Personally, I think Kevin Smith was very much the odd one out then, because GA's prior appearances tended towards the sanctimonious too. (And I actively dislike Kevin Smith's run for many other reasons, but agree his Ollie was less irritating there than he often was)

Even as a kid pre-Crisis even, I though Green Arrow was an insufferable git and teeth grindingly sexist to boot, I could NEVER see what Black Canary found appealling about him. Yes he was ultimately heroic, but there's "heroic you can live with" and "heroic you still want to hurl out of a moving train".

[auggie18]

Kevin Smith's run was the one that brought back Stanley and his monster in a really horrific way, right?

[icon_uk]

That's the one, alas.

[gerardotejada]

I would disagree with that, I might well post this here, the begginer's guide to Green Arrow

Silver & Golden Age: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/91.php
Bronze Age: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/92.php
Under Grell: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/93.php
The Return: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/94.php

[jaybee3]

I don't like Ollie Queen (much prefer Connor) and I'm not a fan of Kevin Smith's comic writing BUT I always did get the sense that of all the GA writers since Ollie's return (and IIRC one of the conditions Smith made to DC to get him to write GA was for Ollie to be brought back to life) was that he was the only one who actually LIKED Ollie Queen and didn't see him as a "raging jackass" to begin with. With Winick, Meltzler and Krul and the guy who ran GA/BC into the ground I always though they really, REALLY disliked Ollie and liked writing him as a jerk and a philanderer etc.

[mrstatham]

This. I'm not a big fan of Smith's other DC work - especially his Batman stuff - but I always got the feeling that Smith liked his character, and that part of the point of Smith's run was getting Ollie to recognise that, no, he hadn't always been a perfect guy and yet, one of the first things he went and did after the big Quiver story was save his son's life, even though he barely remembered Connor. And when it came to the big argument between him and Hawkman over Dinah, it was telling that Ollie wasn't the only one in the wrong. So.. Yeah. I really like Smith's run, and it's the only set of GA trades I own.

So naturally, it pissed me off when Winick went and had Ollie making the SAME old mistakes. It really pissed me off, because it suggested that a guy who had died and yet decided to come back couldn't change in the slightest. It was as bad as the decision that hey, all kids of supervillains are destined to become or already ARE supervillains. Meltzer - well, I thought his initial run complimented Smith's fairly well, but Identity Crisis went and pissed all over everyone, not just Ollie. And Krul got stuck with the scraps of idiocy that Winick, Kriesberg and Robinson had left in their wake, which included a ruined marriage - that could've really worked in they'd stuck with Smith's characterisation, a dead granddaughter (effectively), a ruined set of proteges and a destroyed city that loathed him for making a right but difficult choice.

I mean, what did Green Arrow do to deserve all that? Smith's writing made Ollie a character I could enjoy almost as much as Batman, so how did that go off the rails so badly?

[gerardotejada]

I found Meltzer a really great writer, as more of the critisism to IC was about what was writen and not how was writen. People was just pissed about IC apear in every place, as a stand alone book was alright, but messed to much with continuity. I was glad to know the Rape thing was not Meltzer's idea (I was upset when I found out they actually said "we need a rape").

I found Archer's Quest to be a model of how to write a Green Arrow's comic, play with continuity, seting the iconic traits of Ollie as an archetypical character and at the same time making him go forward.

Meltzer understood Smith's Take on Ollie better than anybody else, mixed that with silver age continuity and bang! Smith had already focused on some characteristics from Grell's Run. Winnick took a character that was perfect from all the views, you got childrens, you got family, you got adult themes, you got drama, Powerfull Women, redemtion, political coment, diversity and a good part of DCU street lore.

Similarly look at what happened to Selina, sha came from Gotham City Sirens.

Winnick touch kills.

[mrstatham]

Well, I still disagree when it comes to Identity Crisis, because I do think the book is a load of rubbish - and I do have issues with HOW it was written as opposed to what was written. But we can agree to disagree, I hope, because I am never going to change my opinion on the story and am happy that I don't own a copy any more. The rape isn't even my big issue with the story, grotesque as that scene is.

But again, Meltzer did fine when focusing on solo characters. With Identity Crisis and JLA, I found him utterly dull.

And as for Selina - I felt like she had been on something of a downward spiral since Brubaker left her book, so Winick isn't the only guilty party there. Gotham City Sirens was an awful book, which decided to revisit the stupid decision from Identity Crisis after Zatanna's role in that had been dealt with. And Dini NEVER explained exactly why that group of women were together. It flew in the face of existing stories. Dini did a good job with her elsewhere, but seriously, Winick is hardly the only offender when it comes to Catwoman.

[gerardotejada]

Yeah, I also found Meltzer went down. I kind of like the monologues in IC, the book is full of rubbish things, but I liked some writing and phrases. Meltzer kind of disapeared into his own dullness. I really liked Green Arrow in IC, this was one of this books that I feel Should be rewriten I would never allowed some obvious faults to be published. But I loved Meltzer's "style" when he writes Green Arrow, It was the logical writer for Green Arrow. His JLA is bad, I would say irrelevant more than dull, It gives nothing.

Yes, I dont understand Dini, He was writing amazing things for Streets of Gotham at the same time. But I dont know, Brubaker on Catwoman was the most important run of the character, kind of like Perez with WW. Hope Selina get what she deserve.

[biod]

This annoys me, not just because GA is such a gaping asshole I can't use use the words to describe him properly without summoning an Elder God, but also because GA is somehow isn't getting his ass kicked six ways to Sunday by Cass in just as many seconds.

[akodo_rokku]

You can always assume that Cass is being the bigger man by NOT kicking Ollie's ass and letting him work whatever it is out of his system.

[biod]

That occurred to me, but my need see his ass kicked overrides my ability to fanwank right now.

[q99]

Very much how I do, considering her opening line.

[auggie18]

There are street level superheroes who can give Cass a run for her money.


Green Arrow is not one of them.

[gerardotejada]

I can think in a dozen of characters, but none of them Heroes. Ra´s, Deathstroke or Deadshot could take on cass.

A hero mmm... Would be Connor Hawke or Bats himself, maybe Roy in his hey day when he was like Marvel´s Bullseye (I read about it somewhere).

[lieut_kettch]

Much as I love Floyd, there's no way he can take on Cass if she manages to close the distance with him. Unless he unmasks and unleashes THE POWER OF THE 'STACHE!

Heroes that could take on Cass-- hmm... Connor Hawke, Bronze Tiger (more of an anti-hero though) and Richard Dragon. Even then it could go either way.

[gerardotejada]

You know Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger are the best fighters in the DCU (in that order).

And Deadshot or another marksman like Roy Harper could take her, cause there is no way Deadshot is going to let an oponent like Cass close enought to engage in melee, thus your argument is flawed.

Chuck Dixon was responsible for making Connor the badass monk he is, probably in the same level of Cass.

To the list of Villains that could beat Cass or put a fight I think you can add Catman.

[skemono]

You know Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger are the best fighters in the DCU (in that order).

Yeah, but weren't they making Cass out to be better than Shiva, since she beat her in that duel in Batgirl 26 or so?

[gerardotejada]

But Shiva has been beated a lot, just like the spectre, to show how big and bad the new guy is.

But in the whole DCU Mythos those three were the top of the top. So If we say Spectre is the great mistical force, then Shiva stills gets to be on top.

Even thou Deathstroke beated Shiva and Batman beated Shiva the writers still treat her like the best martial artist, mainly because of the Mythos.

But If we started all again we should probably rank Slade and Cass for the first place and second/third Catman (simone made him ridiculously strong).

[mrstatham]

Slade probably wouldn't count because he isn't a pure martial artist and has artificial enhancers that allow him to win.

[gerardotejada]

"Hi my name is Slade and I am a Deus Ex Machina!"

Kind of like Batman in BTBATB
"Guest Hero": Oh Batman help Im not so good as I expected to be
Batman: Dont worry "Meta Person who probably could beat me in minutes" I would help you and teach you about Justice because even though you been a hero the same time as I, you need my wise advice.
Aquaman: Outrageous.

Kiding, I loved both that Show & Slade

[jaybee3]

"To the list of Villains that could beat Cass or put a fight I think you can add Catman."

I would never believe that unless I saw it. Catman is nowhere near Richard Dragon or Lady Shiva's equal in hand to hand fight and Cass is. I don't even think Gail Simone would say Catman could beat Cass in a straight up (non-underhanded) fight.

[gerardotejada]

Catman tied with Bronze Tiger, even when Bronze Tiger beat Catman to pulp he still managed to inflict a killer shot. Simone made catman too powerfull. If Cass is at Shiva's level then Catman is right behind. Just saying.

Also Conner Hawk us right behind them, thanks to Chuck Dixon that always wrote Connor as a kun fu master. Its complicated.

The only one I actually seen to put a figth on Cass on paper (other than Shiva) is Slade Wilson, who finally forfeit for the sake of Rose. I liked that Slade has an operatic style of fight, as Cass said he "singed with many voices".

But the whole concept of the best martial artist was made after the comic Kung Fu Fighter and Its characters, mentioned a lot in the 90 but since then many things have changed. Characters going up and characters going down, like Vic Sage for example.

[bariman]

Back when Connor had just debuted and was starring in the Green Arrow book, one of his cases brought him to Gotham City where he got into a conflict with Cass!Batgirl. He was able to hold his own againster her... and then Connor's CIA friend snuck up on her and knocked her out. Then they shrugged and walked away.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

In all fairness, Cass has been willing to accept physical abuse to 'help' people in the past, so this isn't much different.

[hawkmoondirge]

Such as shame that towards the end of the old DCU Green arrow became such a huge prick. I grew up with him in the animated DCU and we was never that jerkish. Which is why the reboot did a good thing, it made him a better character by almost removing all of his super jerk tendencies. He's still a jerk but atleast he's likeable

[q99]

Yea. When I started GA- that is, his revival- I kinda liked him. But he slid worse the more time went on.

[gerardotejada]

Pay attention to the writer change, right after the GreenArrow/GreenLantern crossover.

[gerardotejada]

I think the last Time I had fun with Ollie was in the Archer's Quest, Is a great story that really shows How to write Oliver Queen and How to write a Green Arrow series

[gerardotejada]

If you had read the character developments done by Mike Greil or Kevin Smith you wouldnt talk that way, in fact I think the reboot made Ollie a boring character. DCAU Had It right, the last years of DC they had Ollie cheat on Dina like thousend times making his character go way back in his own history, imagine if Marvel had Hank Pym beat every woman he is with. It makes the whole thing unimportant, and makes the character imposible of any development

[anothermoviegeek]

Technically, Bruce isn't a total teetotaler. He has on rare occasions had a solemn drink with Alfred and Dick. I will try to find the issue.

[icon_uk]

Technically if he's ever had a sherry trifle he's not completely teetotal, but practically so.

Actually, I can think of only two occasions I've ever seen Dick drink alcohol. Once when he was knocking back beers with Wally, and the other when he and the New Teen Titans had a champagne toast to their future.

[gerardotejada]

THIS ISNT OLLIE!!!
Not the liberal jerk that teamed with Hal Jordan, Not the One that apeared on Longbow Hunters or in Quiver.

Winnicks has destroyed the character and Krul has delivered the final blow, THIS IS NOT OLLIE, In fact since Winnick the little details like his love for red hot chilli have been forgoten.

Of course no one blamed Cass for what Beechen made her do, But in Ollie's case every body is going to judge over the last eight or ten years. I admit Ollie is a jerk and sometimes a dick, and many dont like him, but many dont really know him.

The "im not going to work with an assessin" would have worked If Ollie hadnt been asosiated with Shado or the Shade in the past. Yeah Ollie can be a hypocrite and surely would say something judgamental (to Batman mainly), But taking it that seriously? Shooting Cass? pfft, He would simply not care enough.

[gerardotejada]

You know, sometimes I feel I blame Winnick too much, He does a very good work sometimes an have many good moments, but when he screws up He really screws up. He still put out a decent CapitanMarvel/Superman and Under The Red Hood Movie is the best thing Winnick has writen in his career.

[jaybee3]

Cassandra and her "Network" was one of the good things to come out of the "Battle for the Cowl" (which is an almost unreadable story IMO). Yet another of the multitude of dropped opportunities for Cass when it came to DC. I would have bought the heck out of that book.

[gerardotejada]

I didnt read Battle for The Cowl, as a matter of fact after 52 I focused on Morrison and Dini exclusively.

What was Cass's Network?

PD: How things have changed, I remember when Cass remplace Bane as the most awsome powerhouse on gotham (Im the only one who remember Bane didnt sleep just meditated 3 hours? Or that he readed 5 books per day?)

[espanolbot]

Basically after the Outsiders disbanded, partly because Bruce was dead and partly because Cass made a judgement call based on What Would Batman Do? which resulted in a member of their team dying, Cass was alone in the Batcave when a message played on the Batcomputer from Dr Hurt mocking any remaining members of the Outsiders, saying that he was the one who planted the computer virus in their friendly OMAC whiched caused it to explode, as well as the general melodramatic villainy speech that is standard with Hurt and the Black Glove.

Cass wouldn't let the idea of Batman and his idea die though, and vowed to make sure that the Mission would never end. So she went out into Gotham and recruited EVERY Gotham or Gotham-affiliated hero or antihero into a giant organisation that included Steph, Ragman, Vigilante, Katana and a whole bunch of other people.

Dick didn't like the idea of Cass running around Gotham recruiting people for some kind of nefarious scheme, so he basically jumped her as she was roaring around in one of the Batmobiles or something. They fought, briefly, and Dick relieved that his main reason for disliking Cass is Bruce adopting her without asking what his feelings on it would be first.

Anyways, after a while they get talking, and Dick admits that Cass' Network is a good idea, and he links her up with a couple more people that he knows who he thinks might be interested (Huntress for example). So the issue ends on a high note, as Dick and Cass have finally patched up their differences and he accepts her as a sister.

Then in Battle of the Cowl the Network is now under Dick and Barbara's control, and Cass is just another one of the operatives under their control.

I guess it makes sense as Cass hadn't at that point had any experience running a group of people by herself, being something more of a solo artist herself, but it was still annoying that they seemed to just completely remove her from the decision making process.

[gerardotejada]

Mmm... It sounds good but not too good. Like the Issue in Batman Inc. when Tim becomes the agent in charge of the Outsiders. Cass would work better in a tryo or duo, more intimate and relaxed like in the times fo Dixon & Puckett Cass would appear with Steph or Tim or another members of the family like Azrael,etc.

Before the reboot I heared the fans all speculating on Red Robin becoming a Cass/Tim series like Batgirl became a Steph/Damian or Steph/Babs. Well I wont cry over spilled milk.

I dont know whats worst, Cass traped on void, Tim traped in the 90' or Selina trapped with Winnick (I love to hate winnick, I almost pitty the guy).

PD: At least Steph is in great hands, cause If Leviathan Strikes is what we would get then thats the best Steph has been since Q.Miller (or Chris Yost in Collision).

[skemono]

The only thing I really took away from this was puzzlement at why Cass wears so much lipstick under her mask.

[mrstatham]

Given the choice of colouring, that might not even be lipstick, and just her natural lip colour.