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scans_dailyOkay, well anyway...
Before anyone starts a tirade about the next statement, remember that this was the Victorian era, this is not a professional translation, and the context is important: because Madame Red went through an incredible trauma, but dedicates her life to making her sister, her sister's husband, and their child as happy as possible.
The thing is, she wants to be cute. She wants to be a Victorian lady to her fiance, she wants to make him happy. In the same vein, she doesn't want to be forced into this role of fighter and protector, but suffers through it because she loves Ciel.
What I really wanted to say is that degrading girls who choose to be girly isn't anything to be proud of, because they're probably PERFECTLY CAPABLE of being strong and breaking from gender norms... but many of them choose not to, for love or for whatever motivations they might have.
People may call "brainwashing", and there are cases where this may be true, this does exist, but that doesn't mean every girl who wants to go with the general expectations of the gender is forced into it, and that's something a lot of people I've encountered don't seem to understand.
Before anyone starts a tirade about the next statement, remember that this was the Victorian era, this is not a professional translation, and the context is important: because Madame Red went through an incredible trauma, but dedicates her life to making her sister, her sister's husband, and their child as happy as possible.
The thing is, she wants to be cute. She wants to be a Victorian lady to her fiance, she wants to make him happy. In the same vein, she doesn't want to be forced into this role of fighter and protector, but suffers through it because she loves Ciel.
What I really wanted to say is that degrading girls who choose to be girly isn't anything to be proud of, because they're probably PERFECTLY CAPABLE of being strong and breaking from gender norms... but many of them choose not to, for love or for whatever motivations they might have.
People may call "brainwashing", and there are cases where this may be true, this does exist, but that doesn't mean every girl who wants to go with the general expectations of the gender is forced into it, and that's something a lot of people I've encountered don't seem to understand.
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:39 am (UTC)For more irony points, when people put down girls for choosing to be housewives and other "traditional" female roles, they are guilty of the exact same thing as people who demand that they stay in the kitchen. It's oppression either way.
A side effect of this is that guys are mocked for having "traditional" female interests. "Bronies" are treated with derision for liking a little girl's show (granted, part of it is because it's a children's show, but adult men who still like Transformers probably don't get as much flack), men who choose to stay at home to support their families as househusbands get mocked, male cross-dressers are get more stares on the street than women who wear pants, etc.
At what point did society as a whole come to the idea that feminine = weak?
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Date: 2012-09-27 12:46 pm (UTC)The same bothers me when people who aren't Muslim insist Muslim women wearing a hijab is oppressive. I mean, I don't know about the context so to some, it might be, but as far as I know, women wear the hijab not by some out of date gender norm but because of their respect for their religion.
IDK I don't wanna drag this topic into religion but I don't like how certain traditions are immediately labeled oppressive to women simply because they're exclusive to women.
And as for feminine = weak, I don't even know. It never seemed that way before but when I think about it, there are subtle, malicious ways that idea comes up.
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Date: 2012-09-27 08:53 pm (UTC)One of the reasons I love "Legend of Korra."
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:44 am (UTC)Capable of being strong is perhaps not what you mean to get at here. What you appear to be saying is that strength can only be obtained by eschewing traditionally feminine pursuits. That's perhaps not the most feminist of messages (though acknowledging that women can make choices that best suit them is a good start!).
Lizzie here is actually a really good example of how her true strength isn't her dual wielding the swords. I mean, her doing so and being acknowledged as a genius swordswoman is particularly awesome. But the true strength of character stuff here for Lizzie is her noticing that she's taller than Ciel and out of respect to his very fragile ego sacrifices her own desires for cute adult shoes for childish ones. The fact that she's observant of her fiance and his pretty parlous emotional state (as Ciel is pretty messed up) and that she willingly gives up things that she desperately wants to do so as to not hurt him is a truly strong thing, especially given that she too has societal expectations on her.
Her making these quiet sacrifices so as to keep a very emotionally fragile boy as stable as she can isn't as showy as her pulling headshots with her sword but it's her emotional strength of will that's important. That she's willing to shuck off her desire for adulthood so that Ciel can feel more secure. That's why Lizzie is awesome - she's perceptive enough to know that sometimes? What she wants is less important than what someone needs.
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Date: 2012-09-27 12:41 pm (UTC)The words always kill me in the end. I can't express perfectly what I meant by "capable of being strong" except what I really meant was just "capable of breaking gender norms".
And yes, I agree with what you said about her true strength.
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:48 am (UTC)So yeah, this notion that "strong female characters aren't feminine" is pure B.S.
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:51 am (UTC)I especially like the episode with Rarity defeating her kidnappers -- not by being a "badass" who beats the crap out of them (though later episodes do show that she is capable of this) -- but by weaponizing her whining.
Also, Fluttershy. She's shy, physically weak (most of the time), and scared of everything including heights (and she's a pegasus!). She's still a strong well developed character who is willing to step up for the sake of her animals and her friends.
Ironically, the most physically strong character Applejack is also the one who has the least focus -- there aren't too many Applejack episodes.
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-27 12:53 pm (UTC)"Why make a strong female character?"
Joss: "Why NOT make a strong female character?" And then he goes on about how sorely lacking portrayals of strong women are when he's surrounded by them in real life.
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:58 am (UTC)My favourite work for that is Sayunkoku Monogatori. In it the heroin is very girly, she wears pink, is great at cooking and other feminine qualities. But her dream is the become a government official even if that's forbidden to women. Eventually she does succeed & becomes that; and as the story proceeds, her qualities and skills in term of hard work, politeness, organisation, networking, diplomacy, etc. some of which are fairly traditionally feminine, are constantly emphasized as being what save the day. She never picks up a sword; but she still gets to be awesome and drive the plot.
I think my issues with this story (in so far as I can judge my the extract). I think Lizzy probably very much care for cute things for her own sake; but that isn't what the text emphasizes. The text emphasizes Lizzy deciding to be cute because she's told that it is what she should do for the sake for her husband. There's virtually no attention paid to what she likes for herself.
And the other is that it doesn't show how her being cute and liking feminine skills allow her to be awesome and rescue her fiance. It still has to be via traditional masculine skills.
I mean, it's also not bad to show that women can be cute and pay attention to fashion; but still be able to kick ass in a fight; that the two can go well together too - but I don't think that's what this is trying for either.
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Date: 2012-09-27 11:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-09-27 12:39 pm (UTC)Her being cute isn't a result of wanting to please Ciel, it's something that makes her happy, something that she wants to use in turn to make Ciel happy. If you notice, she even sacrifices the "cute high heels" to save Ciel's ego.
Ciel himself is portrayed as a character with a weak body and a terribly strong mind, who more often than not puts his own agenda (which is the driving force of the manga) away in order to make Lizzy happy.
Both of them have strengths they put away to make each other happy, both of them bring those strengths out when they need to protect each other.
I know I didn't emphasize Ciel's side in this post, but I thought I should mention it.
Another thing I notice is that for male characters, showing devotion and making their motivation their love for their girlfriend/wife/beloved girl is seen a strong, while with female characters, if their motivation is their devotion and love for their boyfriend/husband/beloved boy, it's seen as weak (which I think is a huge problem).
She does it for the sake of her husband because as a child, she sees that Ciel needs protecting. And when he's older, she sees Ciel wants to be strong, so she allows him to feel as though he protects her.
I think that's basically the point I was trying to drive, that love and devotion =/= weakness of a girl character. I think I failed to drive that point, but it could still be drawn from the manga itself.
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Date: 2012-09-27 12:59 pm (UTC)Her ambition was never seen as masculine or feminine, simply one of a hardworking daughter of a teacher (was it a teacher? Or a scholar? Or official? Or librarian. IDK an intellectual of some sort).
Anyway, seeing swordsmanship as traditional masculinity is a bit of a generalization in itself, isn't it?
The thing is, if you notice, it's Elizabeth's mother, not her father, who's teaching Ciel fencing. That's because it's the mom who's the swordsmaster, not the dad (though the dad and the brother are accomplished swordsmen). I like that the mom, who values strength for strength's sake, was able to empathize with her daughter's own perception of love and happiness and reason with her that way.
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Date: 2012-09-27 01:18 pm (UTC)She certainly has great strength of will, and has to be admired for not completely cracking under such multi-directional pressure, but I don't see much for, specifically, feminist theory here (beyond 'sometimes girls have iron bar wills'). It's more "social rules, man. social rules".
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Date: 2012-09-27 11:11 am (UTC)"strong female characters" is an outdated term imo. characters aren't inherently strong or weak; it's all in the way they're portrayed. marvel and dc have plenty of examples of that.
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Date: 2012-09-27 12:48 pm (UTC)I don't know. Anyway...
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Date: 2012-09-27 11:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-27 12:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-27 06:01 pm (UTC)And I note she handled her issues better than Lady Red did in the end.
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Date: 2012-09-27 11:12 pm (UTC)Despite pains, Lizzy's still a characteristically happy person, which was good for everyone around her.
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Date: 2012-09-27 06:27 pm (UTC)Namely--everything she does? Is because of Ciel.
In the frames you've shown, I see a character with almost no agency of her own. Does she even *like* cute things and frilly dresses? We don't know, because she's subordinated all that to like whatever she thinks will make Ciel happy. Does she hate swordplay? We don't know, because all we see is that she hates it because she thinks it will damage Ciel's perception of her and their relationship. What are her own hobbies? Her own interests and desires and dreams for the future? Near as I can tell, they're nonexistent. Her entire life revolves around Ciel, and what will make him happy/his life easier/his ego intact--in a very real sense, she's given up her own personhood to become a Ciel-appendage.
Is this accurate to the Victorian ideal of womanhood? From what little I've read, yes, very much so. It's also very Japanese, that ideal of subordinating your self to duty and family, and as such, it's presented in a very romantic light. But as a bastion of feminism, I think it fails--and worse, that kind of 'romantic' ideal has been at the core of many an abusive marriage/relationship. Women have been the property of/seen as appendages to men--fathers, husbands, brothers, in-laws--for thousands of years. Feminism tries to change that, to establish women as people, equal and equally deserving of respect.
IMHO, what one chooses to wear--or not wear--is the smallest part of what I look for in a female character. I look for a female character who has agency of her own, who makes decisions and mistakes and doesn't run crying to the nearest male hero for protection or decision-making. In fact, if I were to recommend an anime as an example of this, I would put 'Twelve Kingdoms' up there as the perfect example of a 'girly girl' who starts out weak and self-effacing, and manages to gain some agency of her own.
Anywho, that's my thoughts on the matter. :)
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Date: 2012-09-27 06:43 pm (UTC)She doesn't want to be an attachment to Ciel. She's more like a gender inverted knight in shining armor (and yes, that makes Ciel the gender inverted damsel in distress). And in those stories knights go to absurd lengths to rescue the damsels.
It is unnerving that she is never seen doing anything else but acting for Ciel's sake. But that's probably intentional -- as I said before, every character in this series is messed up, and Lizzy's willingness to do and be anything for Ciel without him asking is how she's messed up.
One thing that's important: Lizzy is in no way Ciel's property. Ciel may have given her the impression he prefers cute girls over "scary" ones thanks to a thoughtless remark, but he doesn't consciously try to change her.
" I look for a female character who has agency of her own, who makes decisions and mistakes and doesn't run crying to the nearest male hero for protection or decision-making."
I don't think Lizzy is an example of this. She chose to be Ciel's protector on her own.
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Date: 2012-09-27 07:40 pm (UTC)While that's very true, I don't think Lizzy here is a good example.
I haven't read the manga not watched the anime, I've only seen these scans you've posted, so I may be missing something important and reading things out of context.
But, from what I could see, Lizzy was expressly taught since she was a small child that girls must be "super weak and cute," that it's "the most important thing." Then the person she loves the most told her that strong women scary him, really driving the point home that she isn't supposed to be strong. "Every girl born in the country of roses is raised by these words. I'm the same."
Sorry, but how can I not see that as brainwashing?
I 100% agree that the idea that femininity is inherently bad is bullshit. It basically means "for a woman to be strong, she must be like a (stereotypical) man." How can such woman-hating drivel be considered feminist!?
But choices don't exist in a vacuum. Here we have a girl whose environment kept drilling it into her head that "it's the most important thing for women to be super weak and cute" since she was a small child. After being raised like that, she now wants to be cute. Quelle surprise!
Would Lizzy still want to be cute, if she had been raised differently? Maybe. But considering how much emphasis was put on her upbringing, I doubt it.
Some much better examples for the argument that femininity doesn't mean weakness would be Rarity (MLP), Izumi and Rose (FMA, specifically the manga and the Brotherhood anime remake), or Makoto (Sailor Moon). Hell, ultimate badass Lina Inverse, undefeated champion and Enemy Of All That Lives(TM), loves cute dresses!
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Date: 2012-09-27 11:25 pm (UTC)She was raised half as a Victorian lady and half as a Shadowhunter, a warrior of great prowess.
Her true calling was being a Shadowhunter, being trained in weapons and fighting... but she hated it.
The way I see it, Lizzy was raised into half a Victorian lady and half a fencer and fighter. Her mother, the fencing master, is shown to have embraced fencing as a strength, but even then, Lizzy chose being a lady.
Is it bad that she was made to believe the things Madame Red told her? Yes. It came with the times. But between being a woman fighter and a lady, she actively chose to be a lady, with all the cuteness and happiness that came with it. Becoming a warrior was her sacrificing what made her happy to protect someone.
I mean, would you say being raised in a modern environment isn't brainwashing? Every environment and time every person is born into has its own brainwashing. Would you call Christian kids raised into Christian values brainwashed? Would you call liberal kids raised into liberal values brainwashed?
With Lizzy, it's the same. Just because their values are different from ours, you can't call it brainwashing. It's influence.
Or if you CAN call it brainwashing, you can call every environment in the world brainwashing, unless the child is raised in a sterile, objective manner, or in a manner isolated from anyone with strong values that might rub off on them.
...
by the way I've seen your icon dozens of times and I have to ask if you're the artist because if you are, I think I might know you on dA.
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Date: 2012-09-27 10:04 pm (UTC)A couple of days ago, the creator of Shortpacked! asked on his tumblr for some female perspectives regarding a certain issue:
When Arcee (originally the ONLY female Transformer) was first created, she was a warrior, just like all the OTHER Transformers. However, when the show was brought overseas, she was made from a warrior into the SECRETARY.
Willis asked if referring to her status as being "downgraded" is being femmephobic, because it implies that a traditionally female role (secretary) is not as good as a traditionally male role (warrior)
I have opinions, but I'm not really able to explain myself concisely so I won't try. I thought I'd just add this situation because I find them similar.
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Date: 2012-09-27 11:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-09-29 05:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-29 11:34 pm (UTC)