New Avengers #3

[superboyprime]

The Illuminati proceed with their plan from last issue to stop the collision of another universe with their own via the Infinity Gems. It works, but in doing so, the process seemingly destroys the gems, with the exception of the Time Gem, which simply disappears. (I say "seemigly," because with these cosmic MacGuffins, who can really say?)

That means they have to come up with a new plan for the next parallel universe incursion.









That last page puts a new perspective on this scene from back in Hickman's first issue of the regular Avengers book:

Comments

[halloweenjack]

So, an Identity Crisis solution to a Civil War problem. Marvel NOW = DC then. Same as it ever was...

[akodo_rokku]

Really, anybody who didn't see this coming the instant Cap was "admitted" into the Illuminati was deluding themselves.

[brooms]

omw, so this -

http://imperiuswrecks.tumblr.com/post/42447520075/this-was-not-my-idea-dont-look-at-me

wasn't that far off.

amazing.

[crinos]

How much do you have to facepalm before yous skull starts to break? Cause I can't seem to stop and I need to know if I should call a doctor.

[md84]

For this, no number of times is too many.

[mrstatham]

Wow, so, fuck these guys. Cap gets Illuminati'd out of the group whilst Namor, AKA Mr Genocide gets to stay in the group and be a snarky prick and be entrusted to the kinds of decisions these people are meant to be entrusted to make?

[sadoeuphemist]

Well yeah, considering that the topic of discussion is how to kill alternate earths, a little genocide experience may actually be a positive. Meanwhile, Captain America's not being very helpful at all!

[md84]

So they mindwiped Captain America because he didn't want them to even consider building a universe killing superweapon.

That's the moral equivalent of microwaving a kitten.

On another note, I think this might be the first time the combined Infinity Gems were ever used successfully without somehow backfiring. Even Thanos got screwed by the Gems when they made him too powerful to hook up with Death.

[akodo_rokku]

Well, five of the gems exploded. I think that might count as "backfiring".

Of course the Time gem remained because how else are you going to get back the other five?

[alexanderlucard]

Anyone remember whethe Marvel Universe had actual heroes other than Cap and Hawkeye? Seriously at what point do the writers at Marvel go, "Holy shit! We've turned all of our protagonists into the kind of people Stern, Grunewald, Starlin and the like wrote as bad guys when we were kids! How do we get out of this one?"

[md84]

Well, Hulk is still kind of heroic. And by Hulk, I mean the big green guy, not Banner. Banner's kind of a jerk.

Daredevil seems okay. Spidey too...oh wait, nvm.

[nyadnar17]

Number one, Cap had no business having a place at the table in the first place. Him getting kicked out once he lost his gem was a forgone conclusion.

Secondly and more importantly, did anyone else notice something strange with the gems? The names and colors of the gems when they are first shown to us in the issue do not match the name and color combinations that where shown to us at the end. I don't believe it was the Time Gem that vanished, I think it was the Reality Gem.

Can anyone else confirm this?

[icon_uk]

Number one, Cap had no business having a place at the table in the first place

Why? He's a respected leader and strategist, with a long history of "doing the right thing" (For a given value of fictional "right thing")

Whether he should be in a team with such a spectacularly awful track record and no moral compass worth the having is a somewhat different question to debate methinks

[elwood]

Whats interesting to me about this is, looking at what hickmans is doing we have:

• Universes merging on each other - Crisis on Infinite Earths
• Mind wide of a no-compromise hero - Identity Crisis

Thats just so far.

Now, like his stories or not you can't say Hickman is a dumb writer. I can not believe that he would be taking these items so obviously thinking no one will notice. This is a purposeful lead up to somewhere he wants to take the story, and the call outs to the DC events are a key part of this.

My guess that he is doing some sort of large scale build up to a Marvel version of the various DC Crisis stories into one big arch that will climax in the recently announced "event".

I could be way off, but considering Hickman's body or work he always goes for the long game. The fact the new event is so far away and these so obviously tie in already is interesting and leaves plenty of time for Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis call outs as well.

[icon_uk]

leaves plenty of time for Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis call outs as well.

Yeah, because the world was just crying out for those...

[lorriek]

I figured it would be something like this since I read the preview for Avengers #1. I felt kind of bad for Steve, but I would have done just the same as the others had I been there. They can't let themselves be hamstrung by Cap. Great line there from Reed.

[tammy_moore]

Can they afford to not let themselves be hamstrung by Cap though? I mean, although I get where they are coming from this group has a terrible, terrible history of making no-good, very bad decisions for the 'good of all' without consulting the 'all' - and then it comes back to bite them in the ass.

They need someone to be the moral touchstone. Particularly since they now feel free to mind-wipe people so they don't argue with them.

(Also, Beast? Seriously? I want Scott to find out and just give him the finger)

Hmm..

[steverodgers5]

Keep thinking of that scene from JLA-Avengers where Cap's in Bruce's Bat cave looking at the Robin uniform and saying"You lost a partner too?".. Well I guess if they ever meet up again they can discuss how their life events seem to have mirrored each other even more now:-

1) Dead partners came back to life with moral values all messed up
2) Cap and Bats, both seemingly killed but actually traveling through time
3) Upon questioning the morality of their team mates actions, they get mind wiped by their so called friends and sent on their way..

It's Uncanny! ;)

Heck, I suppose you could add a fourth one too..

[steverodgers5]

4) When team mates thought they were dead, former side-kicks stepped up and took on the mantle of the Uniform/Title on their former teams..

What next? An arguement with Thor where Caps says "The last time you really inspired anyone was when you were dead!" LOL! ;)

[silverhammerman]

Well they're pretty obviously supposed to look like dicks here, especially after Cap's completely accurate speech, so it's not like their actions are being painted as heroic, which would be atrocious.
What I find hilarious about this is that the Illuminati are just so obviously villainous. They're all decked out in black and white uniforms, meeting in a city of DEAD SOULS and mind wiping the most moral man in the Marvel U when he tries to stop them. These guys are like the villains who'd show up in a story where the Fantastic Four go to an alternate universe; everything looks normal until BLAM! Secret cabal of super geniuses murdering entire universes. Ladies and gentlemen, our protagonists.
If these guys do wind up wiping out a universe I fully expect a contingent of survivors from the destroyed universe, possibly including an evil Cap to show how important his morals are, to show up for a big ol' fight.

[icon_uk]

Or we find out that the Illuminati on the other Earth, who had kept their Captain on the team, HAD as a result of his input found a non-lethal solution, but that the 616 Illuninati had just wiped them out.

[oddityangel]

What a bunch of pricks. It's okay to disagree with Steve, but the utter lack of respect they show him here is just loathsome.

Screw em,' I hope they crash and burn.

[amaniwolf]

Agreed. So you won't agree with us, so ...umm...you can't be here and make us feel bad about what we're going to do. You know....genocide. Some of the smartest people in the Marvel U and the only thing they can think of is how to destroy worlds and kill billions,....but hey, Steve is wrong, the end.

[starwolf_oakley]

A problem with IDENTITY CRISIS. Did Batman try to stop the Satellite Era League from mindwiping Dr Light or from altering Light’s personality? (Not my only problem with that series, I’ll admit) And did Batman know what they were doing right away? (Because he’s Batman!) I doubt Batman would have a problem with making Light forget any secret identities (which Light didn’t know). It’s personality alteration that would bother Batman. (Because he’s Batman!)

In this case, everyone is on the same page and no one is acting like they joined the JLA just last week. Making this better than IDENTITY CRISIS.

To the matter at hand: Cap may have a lot of morals, but he isn’t a Star Trek Straw Pacifist who thinks acting in self-defense against an attack is hypocritical. This is more of a “This is the ONLY thing we can do so we don’t all die” than a “This is the EASIEST thing we can do so we don’t all die.” Right?

[magus_69]

IIRC: it was obvious that they were doing something, and the fact that they seemed ashamed told him that it was something he would oppose. Their demeanor would have been different if they were just wiping the ID stuff, and Bruce wouldn't have had a problem with that.

[turtlefu]

You know, I get Namor, T'Challa, Reed, Strange, and Tony.

But Beast? Since when was Beast EVER willing to commit genocide to save himself or his people. Beast was always in the opposite direction. More than Xavier, Beast was the anti-Magneto. Remember Dark Beast? He was the one who would do something like this.

[salinea]

Since when was Beast EVER willing to commit genocide to save himself or his people.
Warren Ellis' Astonishing X-Men.

[daphnie_1]

And I was enjoying Avengers. Sigh. Oh Tony. I love you, I do, but why do you have to be such a gigantic asshole and make it so hard.

[akodo_rokku]

To clarify, this is from New Avengers, which is a much murkier and well, *thinkier* book than Avengers.

[shadowpsykie]

Yeah.... this wont end badly.... him and Bruce should share bro-feels.

All these people need to burn...

[nyadnar17]

I fully support the New Avenger's decision here. Cap was only in the club because he had an infinity gem and he all but said that if the rest did anything he disagreed with he would stop then...even if it meant the destruction of our earth.

What better choice could the New Avengers have possibly made than what they did?

[amaniwolf]

Their decision to me smacks of the cowardly, easy answer. They don't want to be made to feel guilty for destroying billions of lives so they eliminate the only dissenting voice. They are the smartest people around, and you're you telling me they couldn't come up with any other way? Hell if they can't, ask a greater power. They know they exist, and may know better ways to fix this problem.
Their answer is, build a weapon, kill billions and ignore the carnage. After the events of World War Hulk, this kind of story seems forced and out of character for some of them. Feels like a mandate from on high told them, make this happen, even if it shouldn't, so here we are.

[valtyr]

I don't read superhero comics for stories about how morality is a luxury. And I'm so tired of this shit going down again.

Small acts like mind-wiping Cap, gigantic acts like wiping out universes, they're taking the position they're above all laws and morality because they're so damn smart.

[theflames]

Eh, while they're very wrong wrong, morally for just doing that.

Cap is JUST as bad. Why? Because when you hardline comments in the vain 'I'll stop you from making this decision, even if it means the death of our Earth' you've signed billions of people's death warrants for your own moral high ground, and that's messed up.

Just because you have the moral high ground, which is easy to obtain and declare, doesn't mean you're a good person for being so radical with it's implication.

That being said, in situations like these, I think they should just roll over and accept their deaths, too much messing around with the Universe and stuff. I mean, the infinity gems probably shouldn't have been used for this.

Also.

Hank.

Um, Hank.

Beast?

Hank, uh, can we talk? How can he say what he just said, and burn Scott at the stake moments later? Damn, you're a hypocrite.

[valtyr]

"Our universe is more important" is not a moral position and Cap is not just as bad as them for rejecting it.

[silverhammerman]

I hope Cap dishes out some well deserved punches at the end of all this. Especially to Tony, because goddammit Tony.

[magus_69]

So when are the supervillains going to be invited to the party? I mean, if they are going down this road, then they damn well ought to go the full way. At least get Doom on board.

They haven't crossed the Rubicon yet, but the boat in on the water and the shore is in sight.

[icon_uk]

IIRC Doom declined membership of the Illuminati after he was offered a seat at the table.

[skemono]

Wait, we're supposed to be on Cap's side here? Because I'm totally on board with Namor. Up until the mind-wiping, of course.

[jmacq1]

I'm not sure the Author intends for anyone to be on any side, rather than for each reader to come to their own conclusions. Both sides are wrong and both sides are right.

But once you kill a planet (or is it universe) you really don't ever get to call yourself a superhero anymore. You've officially given yourself a death count of innocent people that makes the Red Skull look like Mother Theresa.

And again, if they're being all super-logical "we're just doing what has to be done" then they should either be killing themselves or mindwiping themselves at the end of all this, because "logically" having a bunch of people with a planet/universe destroying weapon and the proven willingness to use it is too dangerous a situation to let stand, right....right? Somehow I doubt it.

[glprime]

Here's my problem: Cap was about to make a good point, and then just made a really crappy one.

Instead of saying, "please let's not just go destroying universes," he could've said, "Guys, GUYS, remember the number of reality altering devices there ARE in the universe? We're practically tripping over a new one every week. Hell, let's just punch AIM mooks until they build us another Cosmic Cube. No need to create new doomsday weapons."

[blunderbuss]

What. Utter. Assholes.

Let's just forget what they were arguing about for a minute. Cap specifically asked a man he respected if he would have his back, only for that man to lie to his face and then BACKSTAB him when he was called on.

And then, we realize that at some point, these guys cooked up a plan behind Cap's back to get rid of him if he got in their way.

Honestly I've seen schoolgirl cliques act more maturely than these supposed men of intelligence and power. Did they have this plan ready in case anyone fell out of line, or only for Cap, who isn't a 'great man of necessity' like they are?

[theflames]

Are we talking about Black Panther - because he gave him a vague answer, which Cap (arrogantly) took as a yes. So that wasn't much of a backstab.

You've really seen schoolgirl cliques act more maturely? Lol... I'm afraid to see what would happen if said cliques where capable of mind wiping each other, or better yet, deciding on the fate of our world clandestinely.