New Avengers #3

[superboyprime]

The Illuminati proceed with their plan from last issue to stop the collision of another universe with their own via the Infinity Gems. It works, but in doing so, the process seemingly destroys the gems, with the exception of the Time Gem, which simply disappears. (I say "seemigly," because with these cosmic MacGuffins, who can really say?)

That means they have to come up with a new plan for the next parallel universe incursion.









That last page puts a new perspective on this scene from back in Hickman's first issue of the regular Avengers book:

Comments

[tammy_moore]

Can they afford to not let themselves be hamstrung by Cap though? I mean, although I get where they are coming from this group has a terrible, terrible history of making no-good, very bad decisions for the 'good of all' without consulting the 'all' - and then it comes back to bite them in the ass.

They need someone to be the moral touchstone. Particularly since they now feel free to mind-wipe people so they don't argue with them.

(Also, Beast? Seriously? I want Scott to find out and just give him the finger)

[md84]

It's really sad when Wolverine's X-Force team can claim the moral high ground. When they crossed the line, they all knew it, and they actually let their "heart" (freaking DEADPOOL) speak his mind without erasing it.

[salinea]

Now, now, the Illuminati have yet to murder a child.

[endis_ni]

*Starts stopwatch*

[jmacq1]

For serious. Fuck you Beast, you just lost any leg to stand on when dealing with Scott. I was on Hank's side (for the most part) prior to this, too.

[lorriek]

True, Beast is a terrible hypocrite. I can just imagine what Scott would have to say to him.

I'm sure they'll work to find other solutions, but they might have to kill a world. It's a terrible choice, but it might be the necessary one. Stakes are too high not to keep all options on the table. Steve was never going to accept that. Apparently, "hope" as a strategy is just fine as long as Captain America thinks it is.

[jmacq1]

The ends justify the means, in other words.

Of course Cap was never going to accept that, because on a moral level, at least to him, it's an absolute truth.

And quite frankly if it comes to that and the Illuminati actually do it, they're officially supervillains, and can never go back. I doubt that's what will happen, at least not without some time-travel woogie to turn it around in the end, but seriously...you don't get to kill a universe/world and still call yourself a hero in any way, shape, or form.

[arysteia]

I don't know... If the *actual* only way to save your world is to destroy another one, then you're not a villain. It's like hitting a dog with your car because otherwise you'll put your whole family in a ditch.

I'm reminded of that time Tealc (where does that goddamn apostrophe go?) blithely killed his alternate universe counterpart, and everyone else boggled at him. He shrugged and said calmly, "The only reality that matters is this one."

[valtyr]

It's like hitting a dog with your car because otherwise you'll put your whole family in a ditch.

It's more like hitting a whole family with your car because otherwise you'll put your whole family in a ditch.

[arysteia]

While I desperately hope such a thing would never happen, that probably is what I'd do. If my car was guaranteed to go over a bridge, rather than just scuff itself against a fence. I think we're all that selfish, as human beings, that we'd save the ones we love rather than strangers.

[valtyr]

Well, yeah, but we're not superheroes. Cap wants to try and save both, even if there's a risk of his own loved ones dying, and that's more what I expect of my superheroes.

[arysteia]

That is absolutely true and fair.

Mostly I'm just sad that yet again we're stuck in the goddamn position that someone has to be (narratively) right and someone has to be wrong and because Tony did something *personally* gross Steve is not going to get over it any time soon, and hey presto, back where we started.

I like intellectual quandaries as much as the next smart person, but like you I do like my heroes to be heroes. Oh, and get along.

[valtyr]

Honestly? This is the step too far for me, I think, with Tony. Civil War came close, but... Tony's down with killing a planet, and he's willing to mindwipe Steve and act like nothing's wrong, that they're friends and everything's fine.

This is like Watchmen; it may be a good story, but IMO it's using up and wringing out the characters, and so they shouldn't have used their ongoing characters.

[arysteia]

This is the sort of story I'd like to read, insofar as I'd like to read it, as an Elseworld. We get to see how people we care about would deal with the situation, but it doesn't have ongoing ramifications in the real world.

[jmacq1]

I suppose it depends on how far after the events of this issue that Avengers #1 occurs. It may be that this entire storyline (save the repercussions of the Cap mindwipe) is concluded by the time that issue occurs. Maybe Tony's "You were right" is about more than "getting bigger." Maybe the Illuminati eventually do find a way to do it non-lethally (which would explain Tony being able to maintain such a chipper mood).

Doesn't change the crappiness of mindwiping Steve, but I'd imagine Tony meant it when he said "I'll find some way to make this right" and it may have been about more than expanding the Avengers.

[lorriek]

But if they couldn't save both, I'd expect them to save their family (or in this case, their own world at the expense of another Earth, which would also save their loved ones and two entire universes). Because I prefer to read about people, not paragons. You don't choose the life of a stranger over your own kid, I don't care how "heroic" you are.

I'm puzzled that people seem to think the Illuminati aren't going to keep looking for another solution. But they should be prepared for the worst.

[jmacq1]

Except in this case, it's not hitting a dog with your car, it's hitting somebody else's family with your car.

While "the only reality that matters is this one" is known to us in an out-of-universe perspective, what gives the illuminati the moral right to make that decision for another universe?

Or will they explore the option of simply destroying their own world since theoretically it would balance out the same mathematically? (I doubt it)

[arysteia]

I'm not going to argue very hard for this, because emotionally I'm pretty much with you.

Coldly, rationally, if it really was me making this decision and it came right down to it -- I think you and Valtyr are right that it hasn't been sufficiently proven yet -- then yes, I'd make the choices like this:

1) better that other family than mine

2) the Illuminati see their obligation as being to our universe -- they have no right to destroy another one, but they have the duty to save ours

3) of course the other universe dies to save ours -- you save the one you love rather than a stranger, when you can't save both

Now, is that the way I want to go? Of course not. Is it heroic? Not particularly. (I don't buy into the whole "I'll sully my hands so you don't have to" claptrap.) But is it villainous? I believe not. Assuming it really is the only option. (Which hasn't necessarily been tested/proved.)

[elwood]

Important to remember, with the way this is being set up each time two worlds are destroyed the process speeds up. By destroying one of the two worlds they help slow down the spread of this issue, potentially saving other planets as well.

Still sucks for whomever world is destroyed, but with this setup there really is no "right" answer when under a tight timeframe. Doing nothing dooms both worlds and speeds up the issue.

That said, any character refusing to consider a plan to destroy one of the two at risk worlds would be putting the matter to "faith". Beast as a declared atheist would be pragmatic enough to say "We will work on what we want while doing what we must".

Scotts dilemma was far different than this. He was fighting for the future of the mutant race, which really boils down to "the ability for people to have greater than normal powers". Those people would still be born, they would still live a life. They would just do so without the mutant gene activated.

If you wanted to be harsh, you could argue that Scott's point was simply he wanted to ensure that current mutants were not alone in the world. That he was willing to put all life at risk so that they would not be outcasts/feel lonely.

[bardbrain]

My prediction here is that Beast WILL be the heart of this team but he realized that if he didn't play along, they'd just mindwipe him too. So he's playing the long game, prepared to doublecross everyone when he thinks they've crossed the line.

You might even find out later that he somehow shielded Cap from the memory wipe and that the two of them are secretly working together.

That would be very Hickman.