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[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Way back in his Green Arrow run (still his best DC work in my opinion), it had Ollie Queen seemingly return from the grave, but with no knowledge beyond his roadtrip across America with Hal Jordan to learn more about the Real America. You know, the road trip triggered by this infamous exchange...

After knocking a hysterical Ollie out before he could blow out one of the JLA Watchtower's windows with a bomb grenade after they insist J'onn scan his mind to solve his amnesia (after seeing a picture of the new Green Arrow he thought that they were going to replace him, same as they did with Wally and Barry), Bruce takes him back to the Batcave to see if Ollie is a clone, android, replicant or something.

Steph: Uh... Batman, isn't Shado the woman who raped Green Arrow when he was unconscious and hallucinating that she was Black Canary?
Batman: Shush.

My opinion on his later Batman mini series that followed on from some of his Green Arrow stuff? I thought that they were actually better than I expected, with the Widening Gyre being a story about Batman having a midlife crisis (written by Smith who admitted he was going through the same at the time, and smoking a lot of pot too, which explains a lot of things). There were good things there, but if both the stories were a bit more coherent they would have been a lot better.

Oh yeah, and Steph had already met Connor Hawke in Cass' book at this point, I believe. I'll post it some time.

Date: 2013-04-01 08:43 pm (UTC)
ensiform: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ensiform
For all of Smiths' weaknesses as a comic writer (everyone talks like a jaded 30-something pop culture fanatic), this early GA arc was good, especially his characterization of Batman -- even if he is too wordy. He appears to be a paranoid sociopath to outsiders, but his reasons are actually quite rational and above all practical.

I like Smith's command of the backstory.

And I do like how Spoiler argues with Batman about what he's doing but is willing to instantly tranq Oliver on Bats' word, because that's the side she's on.

Date: 2013-04-02 08:34 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Yeah, this. This, to me, was before Smith really got over-indulgent and sloppy like he did on Cacophony and Widening Gyre. This, and the comics he did that tie in with his movies are, to me, genuinely good. His Daredevil... Not so much, but that might because I think a worn-down Matt Murdock is so overdone, these days, but otherwise, I like him as a writer.

With Green Arrow, I just got genuinely pissed off that Smith put in something like... Sixteen issues? But a heck of a lot of work rehabbing Ollie to be a viable character who was learning from his mistakes, annnnnnnnnd.. Then Winnick came along. How he got to be Ollie's ongoing writer for years is beyond me.

Date: 2013-04-01 08:56 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
see. Smith is a great goddamed writer... when he is not being a crappy goddamed writer... you can never tell what smith you are getting...

Date: 2013-04-01 09:01 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Wasn't there also some weirdness because Batman had never told Steph that he was Bruce Wayne, and she rides her bike to the Batcave, which she shouldn't know the location of.

She's also met Connor Hawke over in Tim's title in 1996.

Date: 2013-04-01 11:22 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime

It's funny because writers really didn't treat her right, plus Kung Pow quotes.

Date: 2013-04-02 08:39 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Pretty much. For every writer that wanted to treat her half-decently and continued to do so after she'd 'died' from what I recall - here's lookin' at you, Gabrych - there's about a dozen like Willingham.

Date: 2013-04-01 09:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I just thought of something.

One of the running gags of Quiver was the idea that Green Arrow basically stole a lot of Batman's schtick--the Arrow-Cave, Arrow-Car, and so on. The first time Oliver encounters Batman again after all these years, it's with Spoiler, a bright blond teenager who's new to the superhero game.

Then, later on in this volume, under Winnick, Ollie gains a new Speedy in the form of Mia Durden, a bright blond teenager who's new to the superhero game...

Date: 2013-04-01 09:48 pm (UTC)
flash_fan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flash_fan
I've always liked Steph because from the POV of a reader she's very interesting. I however never had an issue with the negative treatment she sometimes got from other heroes because I can very easily imagine how, if you were a hero in the DCU, she could get very annoying very quickly.

Date: 2013-04-02 08:43 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Yeah, but then the 'negative treatment' occasionally trod over the line into 'abuse' and 'neglect', frankly, especially when it came to instances like the prelude to War Games. Bruce gets her hopes up by making her Robin, not letting her know it's largely to get Tim back, trains her in a half-assed fashion, and then kicks her out. He then never assumes - for a detective, he's sure a shitty-ass reader of people - that she might get so upset by what's gone on that she - the girl who has repeatedly defied him anyway - might do something drastic to win his approval again. So.. Yeah. Steph could occasionally be annoying, but more often than not, it simply felt like certain writers just didn't like her much at all - and in that case, why use her?

Date: 2013-04-02 08:27 pm (UTC)
flash_fan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flash_fan
You have a point with War Games it's a nutty story, and not in the good way. I think it kind of perverted the comic book innocence of Batman having teenage sidekicks IMO. It was one of those things that was ridiculous but acceptable in a world with men in bat costumes but his motivations for having Steph as Robin kind of ruined that.

Date: 2013-04-02 08:36 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Yeah. It just.. Jason was still a big thing for Bruce at the time, something that was still meant to sting pretty bad for him, because it's like his greatest symbol of loss and his single greatest tragedy next to Barbara, really. And to have him lose this kid and still be in mourning over the matter, effectively, whilst manipulating another pair of kids? It just really didn't sit well. Yes, Steph deserved her share of blame for War Games, but I always disliked the idea that she, and she alone, was to blame, when she did it to prove herself after a really crummy case of unfair dismissal.

I mean, I'll happily suspend my disbelief when it comes to the idea that these kids want to be crimefighters, and that by enabling them, Bruce kind-of takes them under his wing to make sure they can't get hurt. But when it comes to that kind of emotional abuse and abuse of trust and the like, it makes the character really, really skeevy and unsavoury.

Date: 2013-04-03 04:20 pm (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
Pretty much this. On a number of occasions I've gotten into long strung arguments with people concerning this issue, and whether Steph is a decent hero or not. A lot of people forget that, while Steph is no where near as skilled as Bruce or most of the others, she still goes out and fights with them in-spite of the fact she doesn't have nearly as much training or funding as they do, and is still at least somewhat effective at what she does. Had Batman gave her nearly as much respect or care as he gave Tim, she would no doubt be more effective than he is.

Date: 2013-04-01 11:06 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
…Rasta. Guy.

Date: 2013-04-02 11:45 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (Blue Devil)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
Rasta Guy would make a great addition to Batman's gallery of villains. I imagine he'd be sort of like Man-Man.

You know, if Ra's Al Ghul met Rasta Guy, I bet Damian would still be alive and kicking.

Date: 2013-04-01 11:56 pm (UTC)
mommy: Wanda Maximoff; Scarlet Witch (Default)
From: [personal profile] mommy
I've always liked Bruce best when there were other characters around to call him out when he was being particularly Battish, and Steph is almost always a delight to read.

Date: 2013-04-02 03:58 am (UTC)
roguezombie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] roguezombie
Steph's voice sound almost identical to Mia's. It's like he only knew one way to write sassy teenage girl.

Date: 2013-04-02 08:48 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Well, they're hardly that different as Smith presents them. I'm sure Mia and Steph could have a contest over who'd had a shittier life which Mia would just about pip with the later additions Winnick foisted on her.

Date: 2013-04-02 06:40 am (UTC)
blunderbuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blunderbuss
BWAHAHAHAHAA, oh man, I need to track down some trades with Steph in them because holy god does she take no shit from Batman. XD

Date: 2013-04-02 10:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
from what is said about prep schools it's probably true

Date: 2013-04-02 11:04 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And where was Tim at this particular point in time? At a prep school... I wanna read THAT issue!

Date: 2013-04-02 11:47 am (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
This was a good run; particularly since Smith clearly had an affection for the characters and wasn't too busy with other work to get this stuff done. Some of his work is really Not Great, but his reboot of Green Arrow was the stuff of solid comics. That he would disappoint me in other places could only happen after having read stuff like this, so that I would anticipate good things, first.

Date: 2013-04-02 11:02 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
As a Clerks fan, I sort of wanted to like this run, and I have read Quiver, but some fun moments here and there aside, my innate dislike for Oliver Queen made it impossible, and for what Smith did to Stanley and his Monster... well, let's just say properly expressing my contempt for that storyline would breach several board rules and cost me at least one keyboard.

Date: 2013-04-03 12:05 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
My selective memory has removed any reference to that story, hence my good feelings. The only reinterpetation of Stanley and his Monster that I recognize is Phil Foglio's lovely little number.

Date: 2013-04-02 01:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
I just like the implication that Oliver and Bruce have fought enough times for Bruce to recognize Ollie's right hook.

Date: 2013-04-02 11:02 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Though the duller interpretation is that Bruce analyses EVERYONE'S fighting styles.

Date: 2013-04-02 11:55 pm (UTC)
skemono: I read dead racists (Default)
From: [personal profile] skemono
Yes. With his jaw.

Date: 2013-04-03 10:29 am (UTC)
pteppic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pteppic

Bruce recognised the right hook before it connected. You can analyse a lot in 1/25th of a second.

He let it land because it *was* Olly's right hook. And the first one was free.

Date: 2013-04-03 02:55 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
YMMV definitely, but I personally didn't hate Widening Gyre. Cacophony I could do without, but Widening Gyre gave a different interpretation of Batman from the norm. Instead of being obsessed with his mission, he seems weary of it though he doesn't see a way out. Bruce wants to live as Bruce, but he doesn't really know how. That's why he latches on to Silver St. Cloud and the new vigilante in town so easily -- he really, really wants the shot at the new life they would allow him. And it all goes horribly wrong on the very last page.

That said, I didn't exactly love Widening Gyre either. I didn't particularly like what happened to Catwoman in the story; it seemed rather mean-spirited. And despite what I mentioned above, Bruce does seem uncharacteristically trusting. This is the guy who once came up with contingency plans to take out his fellow superheroes. Why would he trust some random out-of-nowhere guy with his secrets and to take his place? Especially a guy who named himself Baphomet?

It's almost a shame the story will never go further than that thanks to the reboot.

By the way, am I the only one who liked the villain Onomatopeia? Guy was a creepy blend of masked supervillain and serial killer who leaned more toward the serial killer part.

Date: 2013-04-05 09:57 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
It wasn't so much D-list heroes he targeted but rather heroes with no superpowers. Green Arrow and Batman just happened to be two of the most prominent heroes who fit that bill.


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