Sins Past

[cyberghostface]

So without a doubt this is probably one of the most controversial Spider-Man stories ever.

#509 begins with Peter receiving a posthumous letter from Gwen Stacy.










Peter goes to visit Gwen's grave.




Suddenly Peter is attacked by two masked individuals, a man and a woman.





#510...



Peter goes to a private investigator friend to see if he can make out the indentations on the other side.

Later he receives a message leading him to believe Aunt May has been kidnapped. He goes to her, only to find out that she was never there. Instead, there's a bomb.
















#511...

Peter goes to exhume Gwen for her DNA.




He uses the DNA from the letters to compare it to Gwen's. Sarah finds him.






Spider-Man manages to unmask her.











#512...

Peter is understandably shocked that Mary Jane would know something like this and keep it from him.


















Norman's "o" face is enough to drive Peter crazy and he begins trashing the apartment in rage before falling in Mary Jane's arms.

The next morning, he tells Mary Jane he has to help Gwen's kids. They're aging prematurely and will die.

#513...

On television, Spider-Man tells the twins to come see him where he last saw their mother.








Gabriel starts shooting at Spider-Man.














#514...




Peter brings Sarah to the hospital but there's nothing they can do as her body is rejecting normal blood.










The transfusion is a success.


After Peter wakes up, Gabriel -- now the Gray Goblin -- attacks him.





He fires his rockets at her and she shoots out his glider.










The story ends with Gabriel washed ashore with no memory of who he is.

Comments

[starwolf_oakley]

Did it just not occcure to JMS and Company that fans might not like this? Or have a hard time with good Parker blood defeating evil Osborn blood?

I still say this should be a Mysterio plot, like HUSH. He figures the big secret out and does this plan because the Death of Gwen Stacy is Spider-Man's greatest defeat.

[cyberghostface]

Apparently JMS wanted it to be Peter's kids but Joe Q made it Norman instead. JMS was under the impression he would get to retcon it with OMD but that didn't happen.

[locuatico]

you know what? this could have been a pretty good spider-girl storyline. only without Osborn. it would remove the whole rapid aging thing, which i think would be a plus...

[tugrul]

What's with good Parker blood defeating evil Osborn blood?

[starwolf_oakley]

http://www.toplessrobot.com/09.jpg

[captainbellman]

And then they disappeared! And we're never seen again, except in a "Dark Reign" special about which nobody cared!

Hooray!

[starwolf_oakley]

Sadly, before that, they appeared in "Sins Remembered" in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN Vol 2. #23-26. It had covers by Greg Land!

http://www.thegreengoblinshideout.com/sins-remembered-the-stacy-twins

"wow" in a bad way

[7dialsmystery]

Marvel ended 616 so that means this didn't happen, right? Right? Right?

(please lie to me)

Re: "wow" in a bad way

[night4345]

Of course it didn't. This is all gone now.

[locuatico]

you know what? if you remove the rapid aging, keep them peter's children and make it an elseworld tale set in the future, this could have been a cool storyline.

[punisher007]

Yeah, this would have worked so much better if they'd been Peter's kids like JMS originally wanted. But NOOO, he has to be the "face of youth" or some other such nonsense. This story manages to throw both Gwen AND MJ under the bus at the same time, and for what? Nothing, that's what, so great job there guys.

[cyberghostface]

I don't see how either of them were thrown under the bus.

[dragontail]

I was actually going to say the one saving grace I found, in this story, was in its handling of MJ. I thought JMS did a brilliant job showing her as a loving, caring wife and friend who is willing to accept her husband's deep and endless love for another woman, now deceased. Within fiction or within reality, that's an extremely difficult thing for a partner/spouse to come to grips with, and the portrayal of MJ's attitude sang for me.

Her role in the "cover-up"? Not so much. Because I dislike this story and its implications so deeply. But in that one way... and as shown in the final scan... I liked the handling of MJ.

[cyberghostface]

Well here's what one writer said about MJ covering it up and I agree...

'Literally the day after Mary Jane finds out this information about Gwen and Norman's relationship - both of them are dead (well, Norman wasn't, but no one knew that for years), and Peter is, as MJ stated, "half-mad with grief." Harry is totally messed up and in light of his father's "death," needs his friends, including Peter, more than ever. It served NO CONCEIVABLE GOOD PURPOSE to tell Peter the truth at this time. Again, you have the situation where the principals in the relationship were both believed to be dead, and you have the emotionally fragile son of one of the principals just barely hanging onto his sanity. And as Mary Jane's and Peter's relationship became more serious, MJ could very well have believed that if she disclosed this information to Peter, he would interpret it as her trying to make herself look better by denigrating Gwen’s character. And when Harry was first released from institutionalization in Amazing Spider-Man #151, there was no point in potentially poisoning their friendship with Harry by disclosing his father's indiscretion. MJ may very well have believed that in Norman’s absence, Peter would resent Harry and take out his anger and frustration at the situation on him.

O.K. - so what about after Harry died - and there was no sense in protecting him any more or worrying about his and Peter’s friendship? Well, right after Harry's death, you had Peter's parents apparently returning from the dead, Maximum Carnage, the Clone Saga, and the apparent death of their own child. What time would have been a good time to reveal Gwen's tryst with Norman to Peter? Over breakfast one morning – “oh by the way, Gwen slept with Norman and had two kids.” When Norman resurfaced with a flourish in Spectacular Spider-Man #250 and tormented Peter a little, Spider-Man burst into Norman's townhouse and savagely beat him, all in front of Norman's security cameras. So does MJ tell him "oh, by the way Peter, Norman also fathered two children by Gwen." Frankly, she might have been afraid that Peter would have truly killed Norman Osborn after finding this out. And then it would all have been over. Peter and Spider-Man, as well as her own life, would have been finished. Of course, wouldn’t she have figured that Peter would rather find this out from her, as opposed to Norman Osborn dropping it on him by surprise? Perhaps she should have considered this – because she has to know that Peter is going to wonder for a very long time what other secrets Mary Jane may be keeping from him (but as I’ve said before, I actually like this development because it provides genuine tension to the marriage instead of “oh I’m so sick of Peter being Spider-Man,” or the “WE’RE TOO YOUNG!” bullshit we were force fed during the reboot).'

[dragontail]

I'd never read that before - thanks for posting it! May I inquire as to the identity of the writer?

I very much agree with the explanation. It fits everyone's character, it fits beautifully in with continuity and makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially when coupled with MJ's long-standing fear of confrontation with loved ones.

I can't say I like it, because I don't like the story that necessitates its existence, but were I to countenance "Sins Past" as part of Peter's history then this is absolutely the cover-up rationale I'd accept and support as a reader.

[cyberghostface]

Sorry thought I had included it.

http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/DeFloweringGwen.html

[dragontail]

Thanks!

[punisher007]

See I DON'T buy it. I DON'T buy that Gwen would EVER sleep with Norman (and it changes the whole point of TNGSD as well) and I DON'T buy that MJ would keep it from Peter this whole time. I give the guy credit for TRYING to explain it, but I simply don't agree.

It drags them both through the mud for no good reason, all because Joey Q and the Marvel brass simply REFUSE to let Peter grow/evolve.

[dragontail]

I thought I'd said pretty much the same thing - that I don't like the story, I don't accept it, I won't countenance it as part of Peter's life. if I did, I would use the rationale above. I don't, but if I did. Because it's a good in-universe explanation for some totally out of character events.

For what it's worth: I consider everything after ASM #500 to be an alternate universe anyway. In "Happy Birthday, Mr Parker", Dr Strange and Baron Mordo explicitly stated that Pete's trip back over his personal timeline had altered previous events in subtle ways. as far as I'm concerned, that trip made "Sins Past" and the faux Molten Man of the immediately prior issues possible. It made Civil War and OMD possible.

So I see it as a separate entity, a splinter timeline from the "real" timeline which runs from Amazing Fantasy #15 through to ASM #500, then a time jump, then What If? #105 and on through the various Spider-Girl titles. Admittedly it takes some fanwank to make that last bit work, but my imagination is more than up to the task (we'd all accept Norman trying the Gathering of Five twice if it got us Mayday, right? Heh).

Currently-published Peter is an AU, to my mind. But that's personal canon for you!

[glprime]

...That's very interesting. I guess I never picked up on that bit from ASM #500. But it certainly helps.

[dragontail]

IIRC, the lines were included by JMS to justify his then-incoming reboot of Dr Strange (which was titled Strange, released as a mini-series and then largely ignored continuity-wise). But it's telling that in the very next arc he introduced a high school friend of Peter's who'd never previously existed... and then went on to "Sins Past" (be it his originally-plotted version or Quesada's mandated re-write)... and had his own plans for OMD and who'd be alive/dead afterwards. So it ended up working both ways and, more importantly on a personal level, giving me a "jumping off" point when stories turned away from my liking ;)

[starwolf_oakley]

I was hoping the end of AMAZING #500 and Baron Mordo kidnapping Dr. Strange would tie into AVENGERS: DISASSEMBLED. "Dr. Strange" in that story was really Baron Mordo in disguise and he lied to Avengers about Chaos Magic not being a thing.

[dragontail]

I like to think ASM #500 explains away any and every continuity flub/change/out of character moment/annoying thing in any Marvel comic published subsequently. It really is the end point of the classic Marvel U... and, funnily enough, it's the last comic Marvel itself groups under the "Classic Spider-Man" banner in its catalogues for trade paperbacks. Synchronicity or intent?

[raspberryrain]

Controversy would imply disagreeing sides, surely. I don't think this even has fans, except maybe for Deodato's art.

[crinos]

Yeah, controversial and meaningless shock value aren't the same thing.

Guess which one this is?

[tigerkaya]

meh.

If there was any story I wanted to be retconned or wiped out of continuity...

[big_daddy_d]

It's this story. This... fucking... story. I hate it so goddamn much. I don't care how, bad dream, it never happened and someone was mistaken, or hell Secret Wars wipes it out. But good god I hate it....

[glprime]

...So aside from all the bad business associated with long-standing characters like Gwen and Norman, it's really hard to care at all about the antagonists Gabriel and Sarah who just "show up" with that tired old cliche "I am from your past, even though we are just now meeting, for the first time, for the last time, HOW DARE YOU NOT KNOW OF ME! RAAAAARRRGH!"

I get the kids are hyper-aged, but if they're supposed to be smart, they should know, yes, he doesn't know you, he's never encountered you, and you're wearing masks.

They act like these overdramatic, whiny teenagers (yeah, yeah, hyper-aged, we got it) throughout the whole thing, brainwashed, and we're just supposed to suddenly feel bad for them even though they threatened innocent people without ever once questioning it. "Um, Daddy Norman? I get that Peber Parger was mean to mommy, but why we gotta hurt anyone who gets in our way? That seems mean?" "Because they're weak! Weak people deserve whatever comes to them! Are you weak, Sarah!?" Again, bad people are bad in the blood? Ugh.

These are just boring characters in opposition to our "hero" that are hard to care about. It would be cool if Gabriel and Sarah struggled with their mission to "avenge" their sainted mother, put on a pedestal for so long, with this image of a demonic father, because meeting Spider-Man in person and seeing him in action saving people and living such a selfless life completely shakes the foundation of their identities.

[starwolf_oakley]

Again, bad people are bad in the blood? Ugh.

According to DC Comics, very much so. All the kids of super-villains became villains. That's why we can't trust Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown. They'll turn on us. They're waiting for the right moment. I am not paranoid, you are paranoid.

[silverhammerman]

I really do hate the retroactive characterization of Norman Osborn as always having been an evil bastard who hated and was ashamed of his son, it just loses so much nuance. Like, the entire original point of the Green Goblin was that Norman was insane, not evil. In particular, I've always loved the Very Special Issue wherein he breaks down with guilt over Harry ODing, because it's works to make both characters sympathetic.

Also, it really does feel like no one in comics, both in-universe and on the creative side, seems to remember that Harry Osborn was actually the Green Goblin for a really long time, and that his career was both longer and more prolific than his father's original stint. Harry Osborn's lack of prominence since his resurrection, and the downplaying of his supervillain career is just baffling to me, because the idea of Peter Parker's best friend being a single father, recovering drug addict, reform supervillain seems ripe for storytelling opportunities.

As for the rest of this, yeah, I don't think anyone is gonna go to bat for Sins Past. I can see the kernel of an idea in giving Gwen Stacy a bit more agency in her own death, but this was a pathetically bad way to do it, and I would be more than okay if this were revealed to be an elaborate hoax by Mysterio or something like that.

[cyberghostface]

FWIW I don't see it as a retcon, Norman was always back and forth with Harry.



(It's Peter in the memory because Peter is living out Harry's memory via some device, long story.)

I kind of agree on the last part though that Harry's return was wasted although DeMatteis wrote a story after Harry came back about Peter grappling with what Harry had done to him as the Goblin.

[silverhammerman]

I think I'd characterize Norman Osborn's Silver Age behavior as more negligent than anything else, but it has been a while since I've revisited those stories. Even with the portrayal of him and being back and forth wrt his treatment of Harry though, I still can't buy Norman Osborn, at least at the time that this story is supposed to take place, outright saying that Harry means nothing to him. Harry used to be basically the only thing that could cut through the Green Goblin's mania, see the aforementioned Very Special Issue, so the idea that Norman would dismiss him doesn't fit.

[silverzeo]

Until aroound AMerican Son where he goes crazy again and talks to the suit like Normy talks to his Goblin mask...

So basically, Marvel is okay with Ms Marvel being brainwashed and having a weird lover/son relationship, and Gwen and Normy having a flair and having rapid aging homicidal crazy kids, but Peter and MJ's marriage was SUCH a embarrassment that they couldn't have a fair, non spiteful divorce but to have Marvel's take of Satan showing up to make it so they were never a couple... only to have them still BE a couple without the wedding rings and somehow have him not getting anything at all....

This is why I am afraid to read Marvel...