Sam Wilson: Captain America #15

[superboyprime]

'I will get flack for this but I think Sanders deserves more blame than he's getting. He went with some attacks that really hobbled her because they made her permanently unacceptable to some on the left, while also echoing the SAME claims as the right was making. Sanders gave a bipartisan credibility to the "corruption" thing that made it stick and made media fall in love with it even more. She was clearly badly hobbled coming out of that primary, and everyone kept pretending it was a good thing.' - Nick Spencer

Comments

There's something oddly heartwarming

[chortles81]

About the confirmation that Ring Of Honor, New Japan Pro Wrestling (or another promotion worth the NJPW acronym), and Lucha Underground all exist alongside UCW in Earth-616... no idea how WWE can work in Earth-616 but it's there too...

... no mention of TNA.

[blueprintstyles]

TNA's my number 1 company, do not fear the broken brilliance.

Re: There's something oddly heartwarming

[thanekos]

I'd joke about Vince McMahon as a version of the Power Broker, but Mr. McMayhew (first seen in a Deadpool/Thing story involving the UCWF) here.

[sarahnewlin]

Demolition Guy is so cute with his boyfriend. Aww

[cyberghostface]

Yeah it's Bernie's fault for being the better candidate. He shouldn't have tried as hard. Good call, Nick.

[freezer]

1) Is that a flashback panel or did Sharon Ventura regain her human form?

2) Going full "smart mark" here: A wrestler who did what D-Man did to Battlestar (squash someone who wasn't there to be squashed) either does it on orders from the promoter or is about to eat a reprisal from said promoter (Either "eat a bad loss at the next show", "spend the next few weeks as a jobber" or "follow the other guy out the door." depending on his status). There'd be more than "I was a jerk. My bad" going on there.

[freezer]

I'll just say I strongly disagree and leave it at that. Twitter and Facebook are open for any further debate.

[thanekos]

NEXT: Nick Spencer vs. third-party voters!

[starwolf_oakley]

Joaquin Torres looks like Machine Man from NEXTWAVE.

[flint_marko]

Does the Sanders quote have something to do with the scans?

[pyynk]

Possibly someone wearing her costume ala the ersatz "Thing" two panels later.

[freezer]

Framing Nick Spencer's mindset for the comic's dialogue?

[beyondthefringe]

I know, I seriously wondered what Aaron was doing there until I remembered Joaquin also had the funky eyes.

[freezer]

That makes more sense.

[thezmage]

If he was the better candidate, he wouldn't have lost so badly, wouldn't have completely ignored the south, and he definitely wouldn't have gotten nastier once it became clear he had no chance of winning four months before dropping out.

You don't use attacks in the primary that will damage in the general. "Hillary's plans don't go far enough" is okay, "Hillary's plans don't go far enough because she is in the pocket of big business and only I truly care about you" is not. Nobody in the world would have made a deal out of those speaking fees, it's complete bullshit, and he disparaged a highly rated charity that provides AIDS drugs to Africa free of charge.

He's did more to legitimize Trump's victory in one week than he did to Hillary's in months.

Bernie lost the primary by nearly 4 million voters while playing dirty and suffering almost no attacks. Hillary won the popular vote by 2.5 million voters and only lost the electoral college by wafer-thin margins after decades of unfounded attacks by the Republicans, unprecedented intervention by foreign governments, an unethically partisan FBI director kneecapping her a little over a week to the finish line, and unceasing attacks by a jealous old lefty trying to create a legacy for himself after decades of failing to accomplish anything. She was a damn strong candidate and Sanders couldn't put up with a fraction of what she did. He's a bitter, jealous, incompetent loser who's trying to take over a party that's done more good for the less fortunate than he ever has based on a loss that he directly and immorally contributed to in order to move it away from caring for the less fortunate because it's "identity politics."

He wasn't the better candidate, he was a terrible candidate, and he absolutely bares a portion of the blame for Trump's win for his bullshit attacks against Hillary that he never walked back after he knew she was going to win.

EDIT: it's not "trying too hard," it's trying to invalidate her to stroke his own ego

[md84]

Bernie and his supporters reinforcing the idea that HRC was the establishment in the primaries DEFINITELY hurt her chances in the general election.

There's a reason Trump wanted Bernie to keep going in the primaries as long as possible: it meant free attack ads against HRC. Heck, I'm pretty sure Trump used some of Bernie's material when attacking HRC in rallies.

(frozen)

[cyberghostface]

"Bernie lost the primary by nearly 4 million voters while playing dirty and suffering almost no attacks."

Ignoring of course the DNC working against him behind the scenes to the point that they were considering using Jewish heritage against him.

And if you want to talk playing dirty look at all the racist crap the Clintons pulled on Obama during the 2008 election including playing on the "secret Muslim" fearmongering.

[tianyulong]

I strongly disagree with Nick's statement here (I was, and am, a huge Bernie supporter), but I'd rather not go any further.

Am I the only one who finds Spencer's dialogue just kind of meh? I'm not even talking about his soapboxing, I feel like nothing interesting has happened in his run (or at least, what I've read of it.)

(frozen)

[thezmage]

All of those emails were from AFTER Bernie had been eliminated from the running after Super Tuesday, and no one can point to a single thing that the DNC actually did that could have influenced voters.

Here's the timeline:

1. Bernie attended a single protest march for civil rights, just like Mitch McConnell
2. Bernie graduates college
3. Bernie moves to one of the whitest states in the country
4. Bernie, after never holding an actual job, decides to run for public office
5. Bernie votes for the first time, now that he can vote for himself
6. Bernie renames two post offices, cosponsors a bill to dump Vermont's toxic waste on a poor Hispanic town after fighting any amendment that would give the town any recourse, and tells them to go screw themselves because he doesn't need their vote. He also runs the VA into the ground, ignoring multiple people telling him that wait times were way too long because he didn't want to hear them. He also establishes a record of not working with anyone and deliberately being an obstacle towards progress. Ralph Nader writes him a letter about only paying attention to other progressives when he wants to run for reelection.
7. Bernie tries to get the DNC to primary Obama
8. Bernie announces that he wants to run for president, joins the DNC in order to use their organization to give him a pulpit, ballot access, and free advertising
9. Bernie's campaign steals data from the DNC, refuses all attempts by them to reach out to him until they cut off his access completely, at which point he sues them
10. Bernie embezzles campaign funds to take a family vacation to the Vatican. He tells people that the Pope invited him there for a meeting, which is completely false and still wouldn't make the trip a legitimate campaign expenditure.
11. Bernie loses one Super Tuesday, eliminating any reasonable path to the candidacy
12. A few DNC staffers send mean emails about him because he refuses to drop out now that he has no chance
13. Bernie loses the Nevada caucus because his delegates don't get there in time or refuse to supply the necessary information. A riot breaks out, the DNC chair DWS and her family receive death threats. Bernie releases a bullshit non-apology
14. DWS sends a few more mean emails about the guy who refuses to condemn his followers for threatening her life.
15. The last primary
16. Bernie talks about flipping superdelegates to overturn the will of the people
17. Bernie gets five more seats on the Democratic policy committee than any loser in history. Still complains
18. Sanders finally concedes.
19. Assange, with a clear and obvious motive, releases a curated selection of emails hacked from the DNC that are obviously chosen to support a narrative that fits his motive. Despite this, all the emails are sent after Super Tuesday, none of them point to any actual thing done to tip the scales, and the worst things in them are things like the Judaism thing you posted that never actually happened, and were only discussed
20. Bernie supporters do their level best to turn the DNC into a shitshow, including booing civil rights leaders and complaining that they were being silenced despite being the loudest people there
21. Bernie talks about "holding her feet to the fire" and "being a thorn in her side."
22. Trump wins by an extremely narrow margin. Also, every downballot candidate that Bernie supported and every bill that he endorsed lose by rather large margins, getting less votes than Hillary did in those states.
23. Bernie starts talking about working with Trump almost immediately
24. Bernie gives several interviews about how the democrats, despite winning the popular vote after suffering a truly unprecedented number of attacks from an unprecedented number of enemies, have lost their way and need to stop focusing on "identity politics." Despite the fact that voters roundly rejected his policies downballot.

During this whole thing, there's been no evidence whatsoever that the DNC has done anything that effected the vote total. Even though he viciously attacked them after he was losing. All you have is a bunch of snarky emails, only one of which points to anything reprehensible, which the DNC didn't do.

So, yeah, I'm ignoring the fantasy that "the DNC worked against him behind the scenes" because, despite the obvious and blatant attempts to make it look like they did, there was absolutely no evidence that pointed to them actually doing anything.

And if you want to bring in imaginary things like the "secret Muslim" smear that HA Goodman put out against Hillary, then there's really no point in responding at all.

EDIT: sorry, just realized I forgot to add his 1000+ pages of illegal campaign contributions that I don't think he ever returned and his denouncing Planned Parenthood as "establishment" not long after an actual terrorist attack against a facility, and the fact that he stopped being a democrat the moment he didn't need them for a presidential run

[starwolf_oakley]

Funny thing: Hillary Clinton's speaking fee is the same amount as Kate Bosworth. And I have nothing against either of them, I'm just saying they get paid the same amount for speeches.

(frozen)

[cyberghostface]

I'm sure this is all imaginary too, right?

huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/can-black-people-trust-hillary_b_9312004.html

(frozen)

[md84]

HRC meanwhile, did her level best to play nice with Bernie and his supporters since she was trying to avoid totally alienating them in the general election. Privately, she vented about the more vocal and vicious ones -- and of course this was leaked and overblown by the media. Par for the course with her.

(frozen)

[thezmage]

It's a hatchet job. What's real is either misinterpreted or blown out of proportion, but most of it is a lie. And most of it does a pretty good job of describing Bernie's campaign, too.

(frozen)

[thezmage]

Which also fed in to the smear that she adopts whatever position is most politically advantageous.

(frozen)

[md84]

I used to be pretty harsh on HRC too. When I realized the full extent of the decades of smear campaigns against her, the ways her mistakes and gaffes were overblown, and all of the good she still managed to accomplish...I felt kind of embarassed. Let's just say I didn't regret voting for her one bit last month, and I still don't.

(frozen)

[q99]

-Ignoring of course the DNC working against him behind the scenes to the point that they were considering using Jewish heritage against him.-

Look, they did prefer Hillary, no doubt. They don't actually have that much control over the vote, and they did reject that idea as stupid. They did not rig the primary in any way, shape, or form, and banging the rigged drum when really the main reason he was losing was simply failing to connect in the South and being majorly behind as a result (8 of 10 of the biggest state victories were Hillary states)... well, there is an argument it made it easier for Trump to pick up the line because Bernie had way more credibility than Trump and late in the campaign when it was effectively long over, he did go negative on that angle and started making it a centerpiece. It was largely being called on later states like New York... which was both Hillary's home state and didn't decide jack squat... and not Georgia, the Carolinas, etc. which had unambiguous large wins and did decide things. In the end, decided things by *several million votes*.

I mean, I like Bernie, but he wasn't thinking of the danger of telling his people things were rigged when they were well behind in the popular... which is effectively a 'stay home, your votes don't matter' sign when they really did.

-including playing on the "secret Muslim" fearmongering.-

An aid did that, and got promptly shut down and fired. Campaigns do get heated and go too far during primaries, but what the candidate themselves do and spend the most time on says a lot.

(frozen)

[cyberghostface]

That's awfully convenient.

[amaniwolf]

I was hoping she was cured and that was her.

[wizardru]

Well, I may not be a Spencer's number one fan, but after the horrible treatment of D-Man at Bendis' hands (turning him into a crazed sewer dweller and then into a desperately suicidal loner used for a cheap joke) he's OK in my book. I mean, D-Man was a buffon and has been used weirdly/badly over the ensuing years; I never really followed him back in the day, but it seemed kind of a waste of a good character. This seems much better use of all of Cap's back catalog of characters.

[q99]

That's a common thing with wrestling in fiction- they have it be show but adjust the level of control for drama.



A pet peeve of mine is when they let characters fight a few matches *then* reveal it's staged... then the character gets instructions to take a dive, doesn't, and yadda yadda.

(frozen)

[q99]

Well, it's also true.

In the end, once things had cooled down, Bernie didn't think anything was big enough a deal to stop him from endorsing (though he did want DWS gone, and was right in doing so)- and the black community *certainly* didn't buy the 'Hillary can't be trusted by black people' line, in no small part because she kept in regular contact with their community leaders for decades.

[freezer]

Politicians aren't allowed to make money, apparently.

Unless they were already filthy rich.

(frozen)

[cyberghostface]

What's true? That Hillary didn't try to paint Obama as "the other" during the 08 election despite evidence to the contrary?

[velador]

"If he was the better candidate, he wouldn't have lost so badly"

Now replace "he" with "she", "ignoring the South" with "ignoring the Rust Belt" and by your own logic, you should support Trump.

(frozen)

[velador]

And don't forget the leaked DNC mails show them trying to convince Southern to vote for Hillary over Bernie by playing on antisemitism.

Mod Note!

[icon_uk]

This is not a political thread, there are other venues for those discussions, and if all else fails, we have off topic Tuesday's for that, so I'm just going to freeze it for now and ask everyone to just leave it be.

Mod Note!

[icon_uk]

If you're going to use author quotes to introduce comic scans, they should relate to the comics themselves, and not be unconnected political statements.

There are other media outlets for these discussions, or indeed, other, relevant posts on scans_daily, like Off Topic Tuesday.

[thezmage]

EDIT: just saw the mod note.

Re: Mod Note!

[superboyprime]

I agree, but I don't consider the quote unconnected.

Re: Mod Note!

[stubbleupdate]

You'll need to explain that link to me

Re: Mod Note!

[thehood]

But it is unconnected, it doesn't really seem to have anything to do with what's going on in the scans.

Re: Mod Note!

[thanekos]

I dunno- it's not hard to read Cap and Rage's dynamic here as another conflict between center-left and farther-left.

Re: Mod Note!

[alicemacher]

That's a VERY general and vague connection, though. There's no specific mention in the scans of any politician, any campaign, any election, any political party. This is more like one of those now-disallowed "for legality" posts to justify a quote picked for its argument-generating provocativeness.

Re: There's something oddly heartwarming

[mizerous]

Well TNA has become...OBSOLETE!

Re: There's something oddly heartwarming

[chortles81]

DELETE DELETE DELETE... Vangaurd 1

Seriously though I haven't kept up with them since the whole BROKEN MATT HARDY AND BROTHER NERO thing started, although I remember WWE's one experiment with the New Day at the Wyatt compound.

Re: Mod Note!

[superboyprime]

Well, on one hand you have the writer talking about how in-fighting and unsettled rivalry among ostensible allies caused Trump's victory. On the other hand you have said writer's story about how in-fighting (at least some of which is motivated by differing ideology) and unsettled rivalries by ostensible allies should be set aside and what can be achieved once that's accomplished. The villain they defeat by setting aside differences is even a corrupt businessman involved in sketchy charity, for chrissakes.

Consider that this issue came out in November and that every prior issue of this series has been political. What's more likely? that everything I wrote above is pure coincidence or that Spencer chose the November issue of all issues to get apolitical?

[philippos42]

I think Bernie and Hillary tried very hard not to bloody each other in the primaries. The war in the Democratic Party was less between them than between existing pro-Clinton and anti-Clinton factions. There was going to be an Anyone But Clinton vote, as there was in 2008. Bernie largely gave them someone to rally around, and maybe better it was him than Chafee, O'Malley, Webb, or someone like Larry Lessig.

So I don't really blame Bernie. He did need to hit the South six months earlier, though, and writing it off at the end was a pity.

[philippos42]

Spencer clearly picked at an open wound there.

Icon may want to delete or freeze my other post. I recopied it to my journal, you can yell at me there if you want:
http://philippos42.dreamwidth.org/150061.html