cyberghostface: (Two-Face)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily

1/3 of a graphic novel.

We learn a bit about the Hiketeia which is an ancient Greek ritual in one which is honor-bound to take care of another.

In Gotham City...

The young woman eludes Batman by jumping into the river.

The Furies (or Erinyes) wait outside and Wonder Woman confronts them, thinking that they're for Danielle.

Batman later appears to Diana, looking for Danny.

Diana kicks Bats out and tells him he's not welcome. Later, Danny begs her to make her tell her what happened and why she killed the men. It turns out her sister had arrived in New York to become famous and fell in with a group of very bad men.

Diana wakes up to find the girl gone and the Erinyes in her room. They tell her she fled to the bridge.

Wonder Woman arrives to stop him.

She says even if she had accepted his offer she wouldn't let him take Danny. He responds that she wouldn't be able to stop him either. During this time, Danny has fled to the edge of the bridge.

Date: 2017-06-09 12:43 am (UTC)
joetuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
Always hated this story, Batman was written as if he had half a brain.

More than just that

Date: 2017-06-09 12:57 am (UTC)
blue_bolt: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_bolt
And Wonder Woman just agreeing to a sacrosanct ritual with someone she knows nothing about.

The Wonder Woman I know would have asked, "who are you? Who are you running from? And why are they after you?"

Re: More than just that

Date: 2017-06-09 02:15 am (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
Couple of points for and against after a smattering of research...

A. A person in trouble could seek protection in a sanctuary, but anonymous stay was not tolerated.

B. In order to receive the protection of a sanctuary, a person had to appear openly and explanation his reason for coming.


C. "Rejecting a person begging for protection counted as a sacrilege."

So according to this Wonder Woman in her role as an ambassador capable of giving asylum could not refuse, but the supplicant would have to explain their reasons.

I can see dropping the former condition for the sake of the drama of the story, as when I read this I assumed Diana HAD to comply, and was only able to reject Batman cause he was doing it wrong.

I actually rather like this story.

Re: More than just that

Date: 2017-06-09 05:05 am (UTC)
blue_bolt: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_bolt
You actually took the time to gather information and analyze it to create a sound conclusion....

I love this community

Re: More than just that

Date: 2017-06-09 11:20 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
but she didn't explain her reasons for going there. They even point it out. And I imagine you could reject Hiketeia but still offer sanctuary

Re: More than just that

Date: 2017-06-09 01:09 pm (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
Right, that's why I'm saying that rule was ignored for the sake of drama. But yeah the basic run down there if I understand correctly is if you were in position to accept Hiketeia you had to (though often the priests would later break it by saying an Oracle told them to, of course Diana wouldn't do that).

Re: More than just that

Date: 2017-06-09 08:33 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
I really like the concept of the story. Bruce and Diana are both serving the cause of Law and Justice in this story, except they have different interpretations of what's just. Which makes complete sense, when Wonder Woman is from a very different society than Batman. The execution loses a bit getting everyone into position, but it's still a good read.

Also, serious kudos for the research, Ozaline!

Date: 2017-06-09 06:40 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
While I like the story, it is ultimately a Wonder Woman story, which requires Batman to look like an idiot at times such as when he thinks he can just force his way past Diana.

Although, to be fair, considering that cover I don't know if one could expect them to actually show the two as equals here. Still, I do respect Rucka for showing Batman's point of view just as valid as Diana's.

Date: 2017-06-09 10:42 am (UTC)
joetuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
But that's a huge misrepresentation of his character. No way Batman thinks he can just shove past WW, and retrieve this girl. He spent the whole of the book looking like a Elmer Fudd reject.

Date: 2017-06-09 12:03 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
Oh, I'm not defending that scene as I legitimately hate in this book.

It's like Rucka wanted to make it clear that Wonder Woman is stronger than Batman, but when was that actual even a question? Especially since that doesn't address Batman's strengths.

Date: 2017-06-10 01:54 am (UTC)
chalicother: Chalicothere (Default)
From: [personal profile] chalicother
It's like Rucka wanted to make it clear that Wonder Woman is stronger than Batman, but when was that actual even a question?

People who play Injustice (s)

Date: 2017-06-09 02:06 am (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
This feels like authorial malice, Wondy not being able to save a jumper. It's not like she's Spiderman, can't she fucking fly?

And her being bound by some spiritual mumbo jumbo just feels wrong. I don't think it's being bound by oaths and traditions that define her as a character. She should be able to kick the shit out of the Furies and tell them to get the fuck off her property.
Edited Date: 2017-06-09 02:10 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-09 02:46 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
I thought the implication was that Diana could kick the shit of the the Erinyes normally. However, if she broke the bond, the Erinyes would be empowered by their vengeance/justice aspects enough that they could take her down.

In other words, it's not a question of Diana's limitations, but of the Erinyes' anticipated power boost.

Date: 2017-06-09 03:31 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
It's basically the same as how Morpheus was ultimately doomed in the Sandman. As long as you're part of a belief structure like the Greeks, you're bound to certain rules, rituals, obligations, and responsibilities. Diana accepted a sacred oath, and if she broke it, she'd be vulnerable to the consequences.

Date: 2017-06-09 03:18 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I'm basically on your page. This is a story of WW in a Greek Tragedy, and Wonder Woman is not about Greek Tragedy.

It has some good parts about the lengths she'll go to to protect someone, but it's not thematically a story in her milieu, and she's set up to fail.

Date: 2017-06-09 03:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
I really don't get this. Star Trek isn't about wacky hijinks, but it still has Trouble with Tribbles. Spider-Man isn't about psychological horror but it still has Kraven's Last Hunt. One of the things Wonder Woman HAS been about is Greek mythology in present day and Greek tragedies are valid thing to use as a part of that. And given the whole reason behind Danielle's actions is that nobody cared about her sister's death because of her being "another junkie whore", it arguably ties into her theme of equality as well. This story in no way goes against any of her themes either.

I mean yeah, it's not something I would wanna see every month but as a special independent story? Perfectly valid.

Date: 2017-06-10 04:59 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Fair enough, used sparing it's fine.

But dipping into the greek myth well is something I feel writer do overuse- especially because her Amazons are fairly divorced from traditional greek myth and the Amazon mythology is the one I'm more interested in.

Date: 2017-06-09 10:44 am (UTC)
joetuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
Yeah, where was all of that speed of Hermes when the girl jumped? Catching falling people is flying superhero 101, isn't it?

Date: 2017-06-09 12:05 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
"This feels like authorial malice, Wondy not being able to save a jumper. It's not like she's Spiderman, can't she fucking fly?"

The Furies are holding her back, preventing her from rescuing the girl on time. That's right there in the panels.

Date: 2017-06-10 03:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] palgrave_goldenrod
She can't fly when she's clearly being held back by powerful entities. And Wonder Woman's a clay statue brought to life by the Greek gods. Her whole thing can be pretty much boiled down to "supernatural mumbo jumbo".

Date: 2017-06-09 08:13 am (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
That cover is strikingly BDSMy, even for WW standards.

Date: 2017-06-09 11:58 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
usually this story gets like 90% compliments. Glad I'm not alone on seeing the significant flaws in it

Date: 2017-06-09 06:49 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
I know right? I've always hated this story, but every single time it's brought up, everybody has nothing but praise for it. This is the first time I've ever seen people say they don't like it. Makes me feel all "I KNEW I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE :DDD"

Date: 2017-06-09 01:55 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arthur_wynne
I like the premise of this comic a lot, BDSM cover and all - sure, it doesn't fit seamlessly into the general portrayal of Wonder Woman but it's all right to do something different/artsy from time to time. I see the greek tragedy aspect of this as sort of like the surrealism in Arkham Asylum.

I do agree with everyone who said Batman comes across as a total out-of-character bonehead here though. That he would ever think he could force his way past Diana is ludicrous -and even that he would really think he should is way off the mark. Batman isn't the Punisher, he's not this dogmatic. But I do think the core idea of this story (WW and Batman, both with good intentions but with different priorities and views on justice, clash with tragic results) could be preserved in a plot where both characters acted more true to form, and I would really like to read that comic.

Date: 2017-06-10 12:22 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lego_joker
> He's not this dogmatic

The first time this story got posted, someone in the comments pointed out that Batman was willing to (nonlethally) slit Jason's throat to save the Joker's life. For Batman, there are exactly two categories of crime: killing and everything else. The former is always higher-priority than the latter.

Date: 2017-06-09 04:06 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
I love this story, but I agree I did NOT like the portrayal of batman, stubborn he might be, foolish he is not... though him invoking the Hiketea actually made me gasp... I feel like batman would have been smarter about this....

Date: 2017-06-09 05:38 pm (UTC)
commodus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] commodus
The funny thing is, I always thought Batman and Wonder Woman were quite close in regards to their views on justice. Seeing as how important it is to Batman that he supports Arkham and tries to get people help and empathise with their problems.
Given the respect the two have for each other, this whole conflict seems a little forced, don't you think? I have to believe Batman would simply explain himself, rather than start shouting and ranting like that.

Date: 2017-06-09 07:07 pm (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: It is XS! She is running! (XS)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
Oh well, I'm content to be alone in loving this story, as I love all and any appearances of actual ancient greek culture in Wondy comics, or indeed any comics at all!

plus he kissy the knee...

Date: 2017-06-10 09:50 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] beeyo
The karate poses Bruce is hitting while he's standing in that doorway. So dramatic


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