Superman/Batman #12

[history79]

Comments

[balbanes]

For a "strategist," Darkseid doesn't do much research on his opponents. Bruce famously does not kill. No way would he blow up an inhabited planet.

[jlbarnett]

isn't Bruce one of those guys who's don't kill rule is much less firm in regards to non humans?

[thosefew]

Sometimes. Sometimes it's "does not kill humans". Sometimes robots and aliens are so okay to kill they're an opportunity to cut loose.

[lucean]

In addition to the above, Bruce in Loeb's S/B seemed to be quite willing to kill on numerous occasions.

Although I will state that was one of the legit badass moments in Loeb's run.

[crinos]

Part of Darkseid's character is that he assumes everyone is either A) as ruthless or cynical as he is, or B) Hopelessly childishly naive and needing the idealism and free will to br crushed out of him. Darkseid categorizes Clark and Diana as the latter, but mistakingly puts Bruce in the former (maybe because of lack of contact, Bats and Darkseid don't fight all that often.)

By a similar point, Darkseid considers letting someone have "free will" or a "Normal life" to be the worst punishment he can give. He punished Secret for not serving him by turning her into a normal human (which is what she wanted all along), and then there's that artist that the Specter saved from Apokylips that Darkseid let go because he considered being allowed to live on her own to be punishment enough.

[lucean]

Looking back at this now, one of the core problems with this story is how deeply unsympathetic Kara is in it, yet her salvation is central motivation here.

Loeb gave very few reasons to actively for Kara, believe in her good side or even care about her as she basically was this kind of fable constructed by Clark. From that perspective, the story would have actually been better if she had remained with Darkseid, but she was such a non-entity that it was difficult to truly get invested in any of her personal voyage.

[crinos]

Well that's because none of this is her story. Kara just gets kicked around from character ro character like half naked underaged football. Hell she doesn't even know how to speak English.

I mean first she shows up and is adopted by Superman, then Batman arranges for Diana to kidnap her so she can be trained by the Amazons, Then Darkseid kidnaps her and turns her into his evil minion, then she goes back to Earth with Clark and Supes and Darkseid fight because... well, it would be kind of anti climactic if we just ended without a big final confrontation

I feel like this could have been done better by streamlinging some things, including having Kara know English or pick it up quickly, so she can have a little agency. Like maybe Diana approaches her for training and she goes with her willingly instead of making her first few days on Earth a series of kidnappings. .

[lbd_nytetrayn]

She's not speaking English? What is she speaking, then, if the symbols are Kryptonian?

[ozaline]

In the second issue it's mentioned she learned English in a matter of weeks. Bruce actually chides her for speaking Kryptonian in a moment of stress. One of the the neat things the story does is actually letting people "decode the Kryptonian" font. though that makes the question if "treasure," was translated correctly moot, because we know it is.

[ozaline]

Well it's not shown in the scans but Kara has a moment where she does chew everyone out for trying to decide what's best for her, instead of asking her what she wants.

[lucean]

Which was basically a meaningless moment because the story itself never treated her as someone whose thought and opinions the reader should care about.

Kara was essentially introduced as a constantly changing plot device with very seeming character consistency or sympathetic characteristics. She just kind of was. And what Loeb did in the Supergirl comic didn't help anything at all as Dear Lord was she nearly impossible to root for there.

[lucean]

Agreed, but that also doesn't change my initial statement at all. Kara was a really unsympathetic character, partially because she was barely a character.

What makes all of this even more baffling was that this was supposed to the mega-introduction of her back to the DCU and estbalish her as this major player. I've rarely seen a character and burn as badly in that role as Kara, but looking back at this now, it doesn't feel like she ever really had a chance considering the base they created for her.

[ozaline]

I mean surprisingly it all worked out in the end, right?

It still seems like Loeb had something grander planned here with her questioning her culpability in working with Darkseid, and the later Dark Supergirl arc in the Supergirl comic... like it was meant to build up to something, but then got derailed by a change of creative teams during "One Year Later..."

Perhaps whatever Loeb was aiming for would have fallen apart (some of his other stories seemed too)... but it felt like Supergirl at least had a direction until One Year Later... but then just became a rudderless mess, until Sterling Gates, who just negated the whole question of Kara being at odds with darkness within her.

But in the end, now Kara has her own TV show... she's one of the principle stars of DC Superhero Girls, and she does have a major presence. And she probably wouldn't have gotten there without Loeb.

I kinda feel the same way about Jessica Drew in Marvel... I hate a lot of the choices Bendis made when re-establishing her, but she'd probably remain forgotten if Bendis hadn't brought her back, and now she's pretty big.

[lucean]

Sure, I guess Loeb could be considered to be responsible for Kara's current position since he was the one bringing her back, but for me it ends there. The S/B story arc where Kara was brought back is pretty much trash, as seen here, and Loeb's run with the character wasn't much better. It's partially a question of opinion, true, but in the same situation you are probably the first person I've seen speak positively on that run.

Also it is difficult to assume that Loeb could have pulled off something great considering almost all of his big time payoffs have been really underwhelming. So I'm not really confident that it was the YOL that really sidelined Kara.

As for the show, Supergirl was floundering before that happened, the book kept changing creatives constantly as they tried to find a way to sell Supergirl. Somewhat amusingly, I felt they almost had something when they had her take up Clark's position in the Justice League and focused on her relationship with Dick as Batman, but the book itself wasn't setting the world on fire and that approach was quickly discarded. Which is sad as I think it would have been a good effort to build that new core dynamic, but it is what it is.

Now the show has clearly made Kara more popular, however I don't think there are a lot of signs of it translating beyond the show. Furthermore, the show actually highlights why it is difficult in the comics and the broader Universe as it essentially has sidelined/ignored Superman in those larger situations, has Kara be the powerhouse of the crossovers and clearly established Kara is superior Superman. None of those are things that are going in the comics.

[ozaline]

Well let me be clear I'm not saying Loeb's run on Supergirl was fantastic, or great by any means. All I'm saying is it is thanks to him that she was brought back, and that his run was better than most of the stuff between him and Sterling Gates. And Smallville, and Supergirl (TV) both use elements of Loeb's storytelling that is the notion that Supergirl was a teen when Superman was a baby (which I think does lend itself to interesting stories). Like I said it's a lot like how I feel about Bendis' retooling of Jessica Drew... I hate a lot of the things he did with her, but I was glad to see her back.

But even if the payoff would have been underwhelming it's clear Loeb was building up to something with Dark Supergirl... and when he departed that book it just became endless waffling on if she was good, or bad, or if she was sent to kill Clark or protect him. And her brattiness stemmed out of that... It would have been better I think to give it a clean resolution, and move on.

I do agree the whole replacing of the Trinity with Kara, Dick, and Donna had a lot of potential, but that lasted what? like five or six issues?

And I don't think Supergirl was floundering, at least artistically, that much after Gates took over... She was given a fairly solid supporting cast up until Flashpoint... and in the New 52 they took some interesting steps with her, playing up her isolation, and then giving her an awesome friend in Siobhan who was able to bridge the culture gap, and who Kara was able to reach out to in other ways. Even the Red Lantern stuff was interesting in it's own way, though I really hope they bring Siobhan back into her new status quo at some point.

As for the notion that her being on par with Superman makes her too difficult to have around... I always feel like that is a failure of imagination on the part of the writers, there's not a shortage of of bad guys who are challenging for Superman to fight... So in big events there just needs to be two tasks in different locations to give them each something to do, if Superman and Captain Marvel can share the same Earth, so can Supergirl and Superman.

In the show it is Kara's Kryptonian upbringing that gives her most of her edge over Superman, in season 1 his mind is affected by the mind control because his thinking is more human, and in season 2 she makes a choice that is "less human," in sacrificing Mon-El. Yes she also beat him in a fight, but it's her show. But I think the notion that she has a different way of looking at things then Superman does can lead to some interesting stories in crossovers between the two.

[mistersandman]

Maybe it was that god-awful costume, but I couldn't really get into the New 52 Supergirl stuff. It seemed like a continuation of the dreary "good or evil, sent to kill Superman?" stuff that spun out of her introduction in Superman/Batman. I really did enjoy her time with the Red Lanterns, though.

[ozaline]

Huh. I don't see that she had like one Superhero misunderstanding fight with Clark cause she thought he was an imposter, and then she went on fun adventures with her Omniglot friend, and her house tried to kill Power Girl cause it couldn't handle two Karas. It was fun. I'll have to post some sometime.

[q99]

At this point I think that's not too much of a problem- people *don't* have to be all that sympathetic to be worth rescuing from Apokolips.

[lucean]

I would assume that people caring about Kara not being Darkseid pawn would require some sympathy. Or is the argument here is that if they hijacked a random white-collar worker who then announced how great it is to do accounting for Darkseid, every reader would be just as in to someone rescuing them?

The problem here is that when Kara announces that she has actually chosen to side with Darkseid, there is very little reason in the story for the reader to doubt that. Thus Clark's decision to see her as this sympathetic figure doesn't mesh with the information provided to the reader.

[lordultimus]

That cover makes Kara look like an edgy pop star and Darkseid her burly bodyguard/back-up dancer.

[q99]

It does!

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Kinda weird, the whole costume thing, considering how torn up these things get. I'd at least think the originals would be long gone as a result, leaving them to make stuff from inferior materials.

[bruinsfan]

At this point I think Superman's were supposed to be ordinary cloth Martha sewed up. Everything but his cape was snug enough to be protected by his invulnerability aura. But since Kara's skirt seemed to be always flying up like a that of a kid jumping on a trampoline, it probably needed to be made of sturdier materials.,

[zer0man]

Considering the story being told and who is writing it, I am willing to bypass issues with the narrative and character development if I were to treat it like it were a summer blockbuster. Considering this was written by the man who wrote 'Commando' (a personal guilty pleasure), it seems fair enough.

And as for the art... That's a bit more complicated. I have no real problem with Turner's depiction of men (save for Darkseid's amazing size-changing via perspective switch), but the females... the stretched torsos on them just bothers me fiercely. I'd almost expect one of them to stretch and find a Pez candy pop out from their torso.