Dark Knight Returns: The Golden Child #1

[cyberghostface]

"These young women are very much their own characters. They're very much of a generation that is not as plagued by the particular demons that their fathers were. Lara did not lose a planet or a species. And Carrie's parents were a couple of potheads whom she doesn't even really think about all that much. Two very different characters of a very new generation." -- Frank Miller

Comments

[t209]

I am not sure about Frank Miller actually.
I even made contrast with him and Roseanne as in "Why an Islamophobic, Crude, anti-Occupy, and anti-establishment Libertarian voted for Hilary Clinton, an insider politician?" for Frank Miller (ignoring his anti-Reagan theme in Martha Washington) and "Why a progressive working-class feminist voted for Donald Trump, a greedy tycoon?" for Roseanne (ignoring transphobia that got her booted out of Green Party).
Even stranger is "Buy American, Be American" is actually quite old, like "Robocop" level old (at least in Avatar Comics adaptation of his Robocop 2 script, where an insane mercenary spouted that line before using blood to make warpaint, back when Democrats and/or the American Left--*cough* Bernie Sanders included */cough*--were associated with anti-Free Trade).
Sure, times may change but it felt too sudden and quick in case of Frank Miller and Roseanne.

[broblawsky]

Miller used to be an alcoholic; he's sober now.

[t209]

I guess, but I do remember someone's speculation as I paraphrased.
Frank Miller being more of a "Never Trump" Libertarian who dislike quid-pro-quo deals between peopler of higher status while Roseanne being a provocative contrarian who just picks extreme sides to piss off people.

[quatoria]

i, uh, whoof.

[trooper924]

So why does DC keep letting Frank Miller come anywhere near their properties? Does he have blackmail material on them?

[t209]

Well, on the bright side, at least it wasn't "evil brown people out to destroy us, the westerners" in the vein of Holy Terror.
Though even his crazy days seems to mock and insult everyone, like Green Arrow portrayed as extreme left caricature and The Question as extreme-objectivist caricature, Al Gore and Bush being "the same" (Dark Knight Stikes Again), and Obama and Clinton portrayed as "cowards" with Trump portrayed as "violent jerk", except more confusing since the villains are Kandorians cult led by a man wearing Arab-esque garbs with his personal Harem and defeated by Superman in "violent way" (Dark Knight Master Race).

[cyberghostface]

"Well, on the bright side, at least it wasn't "evil brown people out to destroy us, the westerners" in the vein of Holy Terror."

It wasn't generic 'evil brown people', it was Al-Qaeda a real life group of terrorists who were responsible for the deaths of almost 3000 New Yorkers that were the villains. If Miller believed “evil brown people are out to destroy us” he wouldn’t have condemned the Muslim ban.

[sadoeuphemist]

The idea that Holy Terror is about "real life terrorists" is preposterous, that book is a frothing Islamophobic fever dream where terrorists are using fighter jets to try to blow up an ersatz Statue of Liberty. The heroes sneer about "seventy-two black-eyed virgins" and remark that the wind in a mosque "blows away seven centuries" and call a captured terrorist Mohammed because "you've got to admit that the odds are pretty good it's Mohammed."

Even Miller himself has backed away from the book:

“My stuff always represents what I’m going through,” Miller says today. “Whenever I look at any of my work I can feel what my mindset was and I remember who I was with at the time. When I look at Holy Terror, which I really don’t do all that often, I can really feel the anger ripple out of the pages. There are places where it is bloodthirsty beyond belief.”

Does he have any regrets? “I don’t want to go back and start erasing books I did,” he replies. “I don’t want to wipe out chapters of my own biography. But I’m not capable of that book again.”

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/27/frank-miller-xerxes-cursed-sin-city-the-dark-knight-returns

[cyberghostface]

“ The idea that Holy Terror is about "real life terrorists" is preposterous”

Last time I checked that’s what Al-Qaeda was.

[sadoeuphemist]

It's not about real life Al-Qaeda! It's about this fantasy version of them that Miller made up in his head post-9/11. That's like me claiming that Barack the Barbarian is about a real life person. I mean, kind of, yes, but no not at all, really.

[cyberghostface]

That’s not the point I was making. The other user was saying Miller was utilizing generic evil brown people threatening the west when Miller was a.) using a specific terrorist group as opposed to some some generic all-encompassing brown people group and b.) has made clear elsewhere that he opposes the law that would ban people from Muslim countries.

If he intended the story’s message to be “evil brown people want to invade our country to kill us” he would not have opposed a law that reflected that viewpoint.

[sadoeuphemist]

The point is, in the intervening years between Holy Terror and the Muslim ban, Miller has changed in his viewpoints considerably, which is what I was trying to communicate to you by linking you to that interview about how he kind of regrets writing Holy Terror and would not be capable of writing it today. So you get that what he believes today has nothing to do with what he believed when the story was published, right?

Also the idea that he is 'using a specific terrorist group' is meaningless if there's nothing that identifies them as that specific group. What, in the story, marks them out as Al-Qaeda specifically, as opposed to a generic Islamophobic evil brown terrorists threatening the West stereotype?

[t209]

Well, the thing is that the book DID kinda implied that "going soft" on War on Terror caused the Muslims to take over New York, give Statue of Liberty in Burka, and the quote at the beginning did make it implied that every Muslims are evil by default.
Even if he intend it to be Al-Qaeda, or a fantasy version of it, the presentation did feel like someone like Donald Trump would write.
At least he did admit that it was an awful book though.

[cyberghostface]

“and the quote at the beginning did make it implied that every Muslims are evil by default.”

That’s what you inferred. Miller never said anything like that.

[t209]

Like I said "presentation".

[locuatico]

Yes, al-qaeda is an awful and monstrous group.
But Holy terror IS a deeply islamophobic book made by a man at an awful point in his life consumed by anger who fell into the islamophobic propaganda that Islam and Al-Qaeda are one in the same.
It also believes Al-Qaeda as this seemingly powerful group that can and WILL invade and wage war against the US unless they are stopped. which is also deeply deeply rooted to islamophobic propaganda.

when the book was written (Again, when Miller was deeply affected by 9/11 and probably consumed by his anger and fear) it was written thinking every muslim. (and I do mean EVERY muslim) was part of Al-Qaeda and EVERY muslim was up to get you and kill you.
I will be optimistic and say Miller later let go of his anger and could see what he wrote was shameful. But at the time, it was written with the same irrational hatred lovecraft himself had for non-white people.

Just... don't defend this book. Nobody, not even Miller himself, thinks it is anything other than Islamophobic garbage.

[cyberghostface]

“ when the book was written (Again, when Miller was deeply affected by 9/11 and probably consumed by his anger and fear) it was written thinking every muslim. (and I do mean EVERY muslim) was part of Al-Qaeda and EVERY muslim was up to get you and kill you”

Is that what you are inferring he believed or did he actually say anything to that extent? Because even when he was promoting the book he explicitly stated that it wasn’t about the religion itself. He even makes a point about Catholicism and the Spanish Inquisition.

https://youtu.be/P7IMNtmxWZw

I’m hardly defending the book as having any merit because it’s crap but if people are going to spread lies and libel that Miller thinks every Muslim is a terrorist I’m going to point out that it’s bullshit.

[locuatico]

Miller doesn't need defenders. and the only thing you get by denying that Miller was at his most hateful when writing this book, or saying that the villains were Al-Qaeda is YOU coming across defending this book.
Intentional or not, Miller wrote this book, which is a deeply islamophobic book. he may claim that it wasn't about Islam. but the end result is that it IS about Islam. He may not have intended for it to be about Islam, but it IS about Islam.

Just accept it, accept that he later regreted it, tell people he later regreted it and move on.

[cyberghostface]

It's about terrorists, yes. And anything with Islamic terrorists is automatically deemed 'islamophobic'; Boko Haram appears in Black Panther, it's 'islamophobic'. Even though Boko Haram is an actual terrorist group in Africa where Black Panther takes place.

But I'm sure if you're this outraged over one book about an Islamist terrorist group to the point where you would dismiss the author's intent and assume the absolute worst about him that you were equally outraged over the numerous times Garth Ennis has used entire series to attack and ridicule Christianity and include scenes like depicting the graphic rape of the virgin Mary.

[sadoeuphemist]

You absolutely cannot defend this book on its own merits, so you have to keep claiming that it is about 'real life terrorists' as opposed to Islamophobic stereotypes. But you have yet to answer my simple question: what, in the story, marks the terrorists out as Al-Qaeda specifically, as opposed to a generic Islamophobic 'evil brown terrorists threatening the West' stereotype?

Also, I'm surprised you thought that video of Miller absolved him. He says, right near the end, "...I can tell you SQUAT about Islam. I don't know anything about it. But I know a goddamn lot about Al-Qaeda and I want them all to burn in hell." Leaving aside that, judging from Holy Terror, he doesn't actually know very much about Al-Qaeda at all, what is that but an admission that his only knowledge of Islam is through its intersection with Al-Qaeda? It's an open acknowledgement of his ignorance and bias.

[lordultimus]

So Al-Qaeda has jet fighters?

[cyberghostface]

Donald Trump is a real person in this comic. In real life Darkseid and the Joker aren't trying to get him elected. That doesn't mean Donald Trump does not exist. It's not a difficult concept.

[lordultimus]

That doesn't answer my question.

[cyberghostface]

Were you asking an actual question or were you just being patronizing?

Mod Note!

[icon_uk]

Rest assured I am not being patronising when I recomment laying off the passive aggressive approach.

Re: Mod Note!

[cyberghostface]

Sorry. I’ll try to ignore them in the future.

[silverhammerman]

Is there really any point in relitigating this? We went through this exact same thread the last time pages from The Gold Child went up. There's no reason to be this invested in arguing that Holy Terror wasn't problematic, and I really think you need to accept some nuance to your view of Miller, but like, we can just agree to disagree.

Now, one could argue that Holy Terror shouldn't be used to dismiss Miller out of hand, that might be a productive discussion. But it just seems pointless to run up against whether or not Holy Terror was racist over and over when it's pretty clear that you won't be convinced that it was racist and the people you're arguing with won't be convinced it wasn't racist.

[cyberghostface]

Sorry. Moving forward I'll try to ignore anything to do with 'Holy Terror'. It's just aggravating seeing comments like "Frank Miller thinks every individual Muslim wants to kill us" everytime there's a post about him.

Kind of offtopic but I recently read a book by Dan Simmons (Summer of Night which is kind of like Stephen King's It) that I really liked and then I discovered he's your typical angry conservative attacking Greta Thunberg on Facebook. So I've come to terms with the fact that an author I like is an asshole. If Miller turned out like that I would say the same thing. I just don't think Miller is the person people here say he is.

[cyberghostface]

You're asking why DC wants the guy who wrote two of the definitive Batman stories and is one of the most influential writers of the medium to work for them?

[trooper924]

Yeah, but that was over thirty years ago and since then he's produced dud after embarrassing dud.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

I think in comics that, if you've ever made it big once...that's a blank check for anything else for the rest of time.

[quatoria]

It's not, but it is free and automatic marketing and an automatic audience, in a medium with very low sales and mediocre advertising, outside of direct retailer channels. And people know them, and they have friends, inside and around the company. Like, it's pretty easy to understand why they'd keep taking chances on famous talent until they become literally radioactive or unprofitable.

[silverhammerman]

I would disagree there, Miller's work up through 2000 or so is largely solid. It's only afterwards that he's produced a handful of work and had it been negatively received (at least critically, because he's still a money maker). It's worth noting that after 2000 he mostly stepped away from comics and has only done them to 1) work through his issues around 9/11 (with Holy Terror and the final Martha Washington story) and 2) because DC handed him another fat stack of cash to do Batman. I kind of suspect that Miller would have retired from comics quite happily after the 1990's.

Anyway, that's just a long winded way of saying that I think the blame is with DC for using Miller as a brand they can use for sales.

[tcampbell1000]

They keep making money, or at the very least, they keep looking like good investments. If you don't think The Complete Dark Knight Returns Saga isn't going to lead to a fresh wave of purchases in a couple years, well...

[shakalooloo]

The Anti-Life Equation is Hakuna Matata?

[silverhammerman]

I actually kinda dig this. I love the depiction of Darkseid, and I even like the way Miller portrays Lara's teenage-contempt-bordering-on-authoritarianism.

I'm curious about the Joker's role here. For one thing, is that the original Joker? Moreover, I wonder if Miller's using the Joker and his followers to comment on far-right, and specifically Neo-Nazi figures. TDKR did, after all, align the Joker with Neo-Nazis through the highly memorable figure of his henchwoman Bruno. The Joker as a villain who was seemingly dealt with now reemerging as the face of Darkseid's campaign could easily be taken as a metaphor for the resurgence of fascist thinking in the service of maintaining hegemonic power structures.

[t209]

Well, part of me feel like a reflection of 4Chan in general.
I mean consider how much awful and pro-Trump 4chan--at least /pol/ but they do go "visit" other boards though--has been lately after their anti-authoritarian vibe during NSA scandal and Iraq War.

[tcampbell1000]

Yeah, this looks like the best Miller story I've seen in decades, and I say that in full awareness of his more grating mannerisms-- "That's GOT to hurt, that's GOT to hurt, that's GOT to hurt, that's GOT to hurt, that's GOT to hurt." Even so, Carrie and Lara have energy and agency, Darkseid is the grand embodiment of evil that Kirby envisioned and not just a granite punching bag, the story has a point, and it's a good point. A little on the nose, maybe, but these are on-the-nose times.

[leahandillyana]

Just when you thought Miller's art cannot get any uglier you get a surprise.

[tcampbell1000]

This isn't Miller's art, it's Rafael Grampa's.