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Date: 2020-06-27 08:42 am (UTC)Also, this is probably just me reaching because I’m in a bad mood, but is anyone else really, really tired of “haha men are horndogs” jokes?
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Date: 2020-06-27 09:13 am (UTC)I realize that's easy to miss because the jacket open shot is not exactly abnormal for an Emma Frost outfit.
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Date: 2020-06-27 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-06-27 10:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-06-28 09:52 pm (UTC)Also, is Pyro wearing blackface in that panel?
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Date: 2020-06-29 02:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-06-29 02:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-06-30 03:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-12-20 09:19 pm (UTC)These worthless scum are Nazis employed by the Russian government. Emma honestly should have killed them all. The only good nazi is a dead nazi
Also they aren't "Keeping anyone on an Anti-human island"
They RESCUED a man from Russian nazis who were torturing him and forcing him to create weapons of death to use in the attempted extermination of an entire people and culture and then they removed the knowledge from his mind (Knowledge he did not want) and gave him safe haven and hid him from people who would also try to abduct and torture him to use to commit hate crimes and attempted genocide
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Date: 2020-06-27 07:10 pm (UTC)I assume Kitty is still "dead" but is Iceman still in this comic?
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Date: 2020-06-27 08:45 pm (UTC)And Iceman is still in this comic, yeah. His powers are a big part of this operation, stalling the ship in ice.
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Date: 2020-06-27 08:54 pm (UTC)Their enemies are a government-sanctioned branch of the Russian army using power-dampening technology and lethal force to detain and abuse mutants, sending them to gulags with the ultimate goal of either conscripting them into working for a government that hates and abuses them, or killing them outright. They are a militarised group preying on marginalised people, and they've already killed an X-Man.
Using telepathy to neutralise them is not a huge breach of morals, if you ask me.
no subject
Date: 2020-06-27 09:43 pm (UTC)Mindraping someone by changing key aspects of their personality, no matter how unpleasant that personality might be, is a pretty big wrong. Capture them, put them on trial, whatever, that would be acceptable. This is not.
no subject
Date: 2020-06-27 10:54 pm (UTC)a) Can you not use 'rape' like that? It kind of trivialises actual sexual assault.
b) Except what is the ultimate goal of capturing someone? Or putting them on trial with the aim of convicting them to a prison sentence? Reform. Changing someone's behaviours and thoughts. They stopped them from acting violently on bigoted thoughts towards marginalised people. Those soldiers won't kill anymore mutants. That doesn't seem like a wrong to me.
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Date: 2020-06-27 11:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-06-27 11:08 pm (UTC)Once they start rounding people up into camps/prisons and murdering them? Take them down however you can.
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Date: 2020-06-28 02:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-06-28 03:39 pm (UTC)But as a general note, the 'R word' should be restricted to pretty much just the 'R word' itself, that's been the rule for a while now.
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Date: 2020-06-29 12:20 pm (UTC)It is wrong no matter who it is used on, and saying "it is okay, because they are bad guys" is cheap rhetorical trick.
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Date: 2020-06-29 01:20 am (UTC)Why is it important to respect a person's worst and most hateful aspects? These are people who are enslaving and/or killing a marginalized group, why should they be allowed to maintain the horrific mindset that lets them follow through on such acts?
Why are you outraged at the people trying to stop bigotry, but unbothered by bigots?
no subject
Date: 2020-06-29 12:15 pm (UTC)By all means punish acts, with due process, with a proper legal defence and all the world watching. Just like we gave the actual Nazis, and Saddam Hussein, and Slobodan Milosevic, and the Lockerbie Bombers, and so many others. Throw 'em in jail, although I'd oppose the death sentence no matter who, jail is much more satisfying, but for your own sake give them due process. Because if you think it can be unilaterally denied someone else, then it can be denied you for the same.
On the subject of the Death Sentence, with that mind horrific-intense-personal-soulscarring-violation, that is exactly what Emma did. Those people they are dumping out the flying saucer, they are not the people who attacked. Emma killed those people with her mindpersonalviolationofmostprivatekind, those are brand new people created by her. Now what do you think is going to happen to those newly innocent people created by Emma? Firing squad. That is what. Emma created new people and left them to be killed because of views the people she killed carried.
Some things are wrong, and they are always wrong no matter who is doing it.
no subject
Date: 2020-06-29 01:52 pm (UTC)Where was that ever promised? Why are people entitled to hateful opinions? Why should any society allow bigotry to spread throughout the people unopposed?
Where do you get this idea that any alteration of a person's personality equals the death of self? Do you really think the human psyche is so set in stone that even the slightest alteration equates to eradication? Do you truly think that bigotry is so fundamental to a person's being that removing it erases that person?
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Date: 2020-06-29 02:12 pm (UTC)And where did you get the idea that external forces rewriting fundamental beliefs through their own forceful violation of the most private part of yourself, is not a death. We are not lumps of meat which happen to be able to breath, we are only what our mind is. Wipe that, overwrite that, destroy that in favour of someone else's values, and you've killed a person. It doesn't matter what the beliefs are, good, bad, indifferent, a person is them and them alone.
no subject
Date: 2020-06-29 05:35 pm (UTC)The idea that your mind is an inviolate sanctum of your being is pretty much opposed by any study of psychology, biology, or sociology. Your personality is constantly being shaped by the world and people around you. Your ideas were first fed to you before you learned to think for yourself. Your values are imparted to you at an early age. Your brain chemistry is a constant influence not only on your mood but your thought process. The idea of "you" has been shaped by others all your life, and will be continued to be shaped by others until you die.
I mean, do you think you're the same person you were when you were a child? If not, did you consider yourself to have murdered your child-self? Do you think your schoolteachers murdered the child you were? If I successfully convince you of my argument, have I killed the owlbrigade1 from several days ago?
Do you think you were born with the idea that your mind was the most private part of yourself?
no subject
Date: 2020-06-29 04:36 pm (UTC)That’s pretty much what Emma Frost’s done. They don’t just suddenly love oppressed groups, they are rendered physically ill at the mere thought of something even slightly bad happening to them. And seeing how this operation is sanctioned by countries like Russia which have a pretty... questionable track record regarding rights of people like LGBT folk and whatnot, then YIKES. Death’s a friggin mercy compared to the fate they’ve been left to. Heck, what’s stopping these governments from starting the operation back up again? Stuff like this isn’t done on an individual basis, this comes from deep systemic issues that create and enforce these kinds of attitudes in people. And what happens if this gets exposed? When this gets exposed? The “little grey men” excuse can’t hold up well considering (a)these aliens specifically and suspiciously targeted the Mutant-hating group, and (b)actual aliens are a well-documented and accepted fact in the MARVEL Universe. If anything, this’ll make things worse for everyone and everything looped in, not better.
The only reason the X-Men barely come out looking good in this scenario is because their opposition is somehow (but often just as barely) worse.
no subject
Date: 2020-06-29 10:57 pm (UTC)A direct no-telepathy attack that will likely kill most of those soldiers in the process?
Appeal to the government to change? (Given that this plotline is based heavily on how LGBTQ peoples are being in certain areas of Russia in real life, and how well appeals there have been going...)
Appeal to the UN and wait for sanctions and hearings, and let who knows how many mutants die in the meantime?
Ask the Avengers?
The X-Men tackled a threat that was killing mutants, destroyed the mutant-dampening tech being used to do it, and -- without spilling any blood -- sent a firm message as to the consequences of 'only following orders' of a violent, hateful regime.
The end result sucks for those soldiers, sure. But maybe they should have thought of that before they strapped on a gun every day and used it to violently oppress people?
*scenarios like this, not just this scenario
Date: 2020-06-30 12:41 am (UTC)...wait just a darn second, why don’t the Quiet Council just wait for the Mutants to die off? Death for mutants is little more than an inconvenience now, and that’s implied the higher ups fudge with their memories/feelings to make them not care. That’s not like anyone’ll notice they’re on Krakoa, either, given how secretive they are.
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Date: 2020-12-20 09:26 pm (UTC)They are animals
I'd argue that killing every single one of them would be the correct course but Krakoa's laws currently forbid that. So until the day that changes, putting a leash on them seems like an acceptable alternative. If you can't destroy a dangerous animal you cage it and prevent it from harming innocents
Emma showed these scum more mercy than they'd be shown in many countries. There are places in the world where they'd be put to death or locked up for life. And to be clear I fully support both life imprisonment or execution for worthless trash like these men.
However she's given them the freedom to go about their regular lives...the only thing she's changed is that they can't commit hate crimes anymore.
They have a second chance now to live a life of actual worth. It's a second chance I wouldn't give them. I'd put a bullet in the back of their heads and feel absolutely nothing
no subject
Date: 2020-12-20 09:56 pm (UTC)(b)I don’t remember, are these nazis? Or are they just Russian soldiers?
(c)Believe that or not, nazis actually are people. You ask a nazi soldier why they did what they did, chances are they’ll have told you they were just doing their jobs. That’s what makes groups and ideologies like the nazis so horrifying; anyone can fall in line with the right motive or a good enough push, like economic or societal troubles, a loss of control, a need for things to make sense, maybe they grew up with these thoughts pushed into them. Demonisation and disassociation of the other is both what fuels ideologies like fascism or zealotry or what have you in the first place (Jews/LGBT+/Minorities/etc. aren’t people, they’re animals!) while at the same time acts as what drives people to stick with those groups, too, as that adversity convinces them they’re right. Us vs. them, an eye for an eye, the only good XYZ is a dead XYZ, these are self-defeating rhetorics that serve to grossly simplify any conflict, keep us divided and stop any actual meaningful conversation or change from happening.
Back on the topic of the comic: I believe almost any kind of non-consensual mind forking like what is shown above is wrong, no matter what you’re forking their mind for. YMMV.
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Date: 2020-12-20 10:35 pm (UTC)Regarding the second point:
I'll put it simply and bluntly: I don't remotely care about the reasons why someone became a Nazi any more than I care about the reasons why someone joined the KKK or the Westboro Baptist Church. I don't care about what pathetic sob story they've got or however many crocodile tears they want to squeeze out about it. They had a shitty life? Things were hard for them? Boo hoo. I don't care. Frankly the only thing I would think if a "person" like that started crying and bitching about how hard their life was would be "It obviously wasn't hard enough because your still breathing"
And I've got no interest in debating, educating or reasoning with those I view as being worth less than the shit I'd scrape off the heel of my shoe. Or seeing heroes in fiction waste their time doing that either. I don't want heroes to "Reason" with hateful pieces of trash like these men. I want them to do exactly what Emma and her team did here. Punish them for their crimes and prevent them comitting any further ones by any means necessary.
And the only "Meaningful change" that I want to happen to "people" like the men in the above scans is for them to go from being alive to being six feet underground for the worms to chew.
That's honestly my only complaint with the above scene. I think Emma and her team should have just killed them all.
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Date: 2020-06-29 05:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-12-20 09:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-07-01 01:53 pm (UTC)1) The Marauder's actions are pretty clearly not pre-approved by the Quiet Council, the closest thing that Krakoa seems to have to a governing body. Does this mean that any mutant who feels the need is clear to engage in acts of war against the rest of world? I mean, that is pretty much how super-teams usually operate, but given the amnesty Krakoa has been aggressively negotiating for "Anyone from our country can do anything to anyone from any of yours, and no regulation or accountability can be imposed either on our end our yours unless they kill someone," seems like an uncomfortable stance.
2) Emma and her students sure do keep calling humans "Monkeys," huh?
no subject
Date: 2020-08-17 12:13 pm (UTC)I'm also utterly baffled by people acting like what she did was bad here
The people on that ship are fascist soldiers of one of the most evil governments on the entire planet. They are directly engaged in attempted genocide and enslavement of an entire people.
Emma would be well within her rights to kill every single one of them. Instead she shows them mercy and sends them on their way with a psychic leash on their mind that will make them incapable of acting on any bigoted or hateful thought they have...I really don't see how "Making someone unable to commit a hate crime" is a bad thing.