Empyre: X-Men #4 - "Un-Ring"

[laughing_tree]

As for the reason it seems creepy, well, it feels that way because we did all the resurrections at (generally) the same time and presented it as a ceremonial. It feels religious. It feels other. It feels terrifying. Unless you’re them, and then it feels ascendant. It feels like victory. -- Jonathan Hickman

Comments

Not helping your case, Hickman.

[deh_tommy]

Aw, that scene with the zombie was really sweet. Though shouldn’t that be the other way around where the Krakoan resurrection is not really them, considering the zombies are their original bodies?

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[donnblake]

Eh- I weigh the mind more heavily than the body in terms of identity, given a setting where we know the two are separable. In this instance, they've both cases of the mind being returned to a prior state by an outside entity (I find it unlikely that the zombie's personality and memories remained that intact given the likely decay of the brain), so I'd say they're both copies, or neither of them is.

Origins aside, though, they're both real people who share an identity- only one of them has a terminal condition.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[zachbeacon]

Yeah, between the Crossing, Onslaught, Secret War, ect how many times has Tony Stark died only to be brought back as a copy.

If you want to get technical, the current Spider-Man is a grandson of the original because there were two different occasions when Peter turns into a monster and then dies giving birth to a new Peter with slightly different powers.

I really can't be bothered to know whose skin Professor X is wearing at this point.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[obsidianwolf]

There are all sorts of questions surroudnign resurections in comics given that we know for a fact Souls exist in the marvel universe.

I mean the zombie would have more claim if Wanda's crazy spell brought the soul back of course given how wrong the zombies there's a good argument for them being soulless husk reanimated by magic just acting out remnants of their past.

So take the soul out of the equation and neither is still the original since zombie boy is a reanimated husk and the Krakoan copy is a fancy clone with only a partial restoration of memories since Cerebro does not back up constantly outside of probably the Crucible where they are really selling the former mutant dies and gets their powers back. When honestly Proteus or another reality warper ought to be able to repower them on without them dying. Though dying probably lets Xavier and company sell the lie that Krakoa has conquered death and he is free to make any changes he wants to them.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[gnarll]

Rahnes acting weird could be because her soul decided it wanted to stay with her family.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[zerocaloriecola]

Body vs Soul.
The zombie is a remnant, the resurrected is the original. It works because marvel has a concept of the soul.

In jane foster valkyrie there's a reference to how Death is suffering because the five appear to have conquered death.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[deh_tommy]

That makes sense. I don’t know why, I just sort of assumed Scarlet Witch’s spell brought back their souls, too.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[silicondream]

Ah, but that only resolves the philosophical problem if souls themselves cannot be copied, destroyed or recreated. Otherwise we've got the same issue: how do you tell whether the zombie's soul or the resurrected guy's soul is the original?

We've seen that alternate timelines in the Marvel multiverse come with their own afterlives, so souls must get created, destroyed, copied and merged whenever this year's Big Event reshuffles continuity. And even within a single timeline, a Soul Gem wielder and various cosmic beings can pretty much do whatever they want with souls. Add in time travel and... yeah.

Case in point, is the Magus' soul the same as Adam Warlock's? In some continuities and at some times, he was Warlock's future self, which would argue that he's got the same soul...but then Warlock sabotaged that by stealing his own soul from a pre-Magus future version. And then the Magus was recreated from a piece of Warlock's soul that was expelled when he got the Infinity Gauntlet. And then at the end of Infinity War he was absorbed back into the Soul Gem...but not reintegrated into Warlock's soul...and then Warlock traveled into his own soul and found a separate Magus-aspect waiting there anyway...and more recently Warlock has re-evolved into the Magus...and all the versions of the Magus seem to share some memories. I'm not even trying to summarize the most recent half-dozen Infinity Whatever Starlin miniseries in there.

Or, y'know, how many souls does Cable/X-Man/Nate Grey have? Comic book theology makes the real-world version look like kindergarten.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[gnarll]

Krakoas treatment of clones seem to imply that they are pretty sensitive about that issue.

Re: Not helping your case, Hickman.

[zerocaloriecola]

The zombie has no soul (unless wanda brought back a whole species, only to kill them all over again)

sure, alternate timelines can cause "doubles", the same as a clone with memories, but they basically are at the end of the day they're not the same soul. The cosmic aspect of death won't be concerned with random clones or timeline doubles.

[cygnia]

I support Wong going to the restaurant without Strange. :D

[tcampbell1000]

[Cumberbitching] "What, you want an EXACT TIME-FRAME for the dissolution of this zombie plague? Are you NEW? Magic doesn't work on a predictable schedule like TV PROGRAMMING, especially if it involves chaotic elements (note to self: see if I can make everyone forget that time I said chaos magic wasn't real). But fine, to put your mind at ease, I'll give you an APPROXIMATE figure. APPROXIMATELY thirty days."

[THIRTY DAYS, 0 HOURS, 0 MINUTES, 0 SECONDS LATER: INSTANT COMPLETE ZOMBIE COLLAPSE]

[arilou_skiff]

I know she is being possessed or whatever but Illyana calling Kurt of all people "Boy" feels incredibly weird considering their relative ages.

Though I guess she has enough timey-wimey in her backstory to confuse things.

[zachbeacon]

"Something Something Belasco influence?"

[erikred]

Basically this. If we allow for all of the time-bendiness of Limbo, her Darkchylde part can be as old as... plot requires.

I like to think she was simply in control and %$#&ing with them.

"I Regret Nothing"-- the Illyana Rasputin Story.

[bruinsfan]

Yeah, she was a child when Kurt was a grown man, but she has Belasco's immortality and we really don't know how much time she's spent in Limbo since she became its ruler. She could be subjectively older than Xavier at this point.

[gnarll]

I'd question any lust for Kurt based on the behavior of Limbo Kurt though. Then again, psychopaths tend to be characterized by hedonistic behavior without the limits of common norms.

[zachbeacon]

Fur and tail aside, isn't Kurt supposed to canonically be one of the most attractive people in a team full of people that look like super models?

Somehow I don't think looking demonic and smelling of brimstone would be a deal breaker for her.

Heck, Kurt looks so much like Belasco under some artists that they're the same person in the Earth X universe. To say she probably has complicated feelings about her abductor is likely an understatement.

[gnarll]

That... makes it kinda creepy. Although seeing Kurt as a "safe" Belasco would be understandable.

[zachbeacon]

I mean everything about Illyana is creepy when you think about it.

At least I'm pretty sure Kurt would shut that down if she ever actually made a serious advance on him. He's not Colossus.

[gnarll]

Implying that her brother wouldn't? ;)

I could see how she might develop a desire for Kurt, thinking about it. During her teen years in the X-mansion, he was happy and fun. I could see her figuratively outside in the emotional winter, pressing her face against the glass and seeing the warmth and light inside.

I suspect Kurt might go with it if convinced shes an adult now. he did date Rachel and got close to Megan.

[zachbeacon]

I was talking about Pete/Kitty .... though, considering how young she was when they met, Kitty/Illyana has the same age problem but in the opposite direction. Like I said, everything about Illyana is creepy if you stop to think about it.

I'd find it more implausible if Illyana DIDN'T have some feelings for Kurt if only because I assume everyone does.

I just don't think he'd be cool with it. Granted, she is his type* but I think all the other stuff is too much.

*You could argue that all women are his type but mostly he's just a flirt. He seems to have a thing for magic ladies; Meggan, Amanda Sefton**, and Scarlet Witch in at least two universes.

**Insert CW Flash joke here.

[zerocaloriecola]

with kitty/illyana, illyana was aged up unnaturally and kitty didn't know her as a kid for very long

idk if it is the same

[onsokumaru]

That puts another nail in the coffin of that "Illyana only pretends to be into boy for fake "normality"" headcannon coffin.

I hope that one day some writer will define once for all her powers and her demonic nature. It's all over the place since she "came back".

[zachbeacon]

Alternatively its a Namor thing where she has a different standard of beauty because she's only part human.

Though if she had an anti-redhead bias I'd assume it was because she's jealous of Rachel.

[lordultimus]

Someday I'm sure some highly determined fan will get the X-writers job at the right place at the right time.

Or just say she's bi.

[gnarll]

Psychopaths generally don't align neatly into gay/straight categories.

[jlbarnett]

actually the mass resurrections wasn't so bad. It's the ceremony and deciding "since we can do this we can be casual about dying now."

[beyondthefringe]

Sooner or later, Mystique is going to ask some VERY pointed questions about why fucking obscure mutants like Tommy the Rainbow Haired Morlock and Explodey Boy were resurrected while Destiny hasn't been, and on that day, Krakoa will burn.

Seriously.

[scorntx]

She's already been asking.
Now she's progressed up to "gimme my wife back, you *****s."

(And Destiny seems to have left a metaphorical pile of gasoline, some matches and a packed lunch for her...)

[zachbeacon]

Mystique is one of those villains I can't help but root for.

Especially when the "heroes" include Xavier and Bishop.

[gnarll]

Rogue is invulnerable to telepathy, could clap an hand on Xavier, put on his helmet and bring her mommy back again. Yes, it is Mystique who is all angry about it, but if she complains to her daugther and son in law, they have the power to do something about it.