Wonder Woman '84 SPOILER Discussion Thread

[lordultimus]

The mods said this needed to be a separate thread, so I'm giving it one!



So when I read some leaks a while ago, I predicted that WW84 would be a "Frozen II" situation, where it's a sequel to a popular film that, while not widely hated, would generate a LOT of discussion due to the impact the first one made. (Not that there aren't people who hate Frozen II, I just mean that opinions are all over the place with that film.)

And so far, it seems like I was right.

So what do you guys think? Was the film good, bad, or somewhere in the middle? How does this rank up as part of the franchise? And where do you see WW3 (which is being fast-tracked with Patty Jenkins and Gal Gadot both signed up) going?

Comments

[thezmage]

I enjoyed the parts of the movie I was awake for (Turn off the lights and cover me with a blanket after a busy and exciting Christmas day and what else would you expect?)

Hearing the conversations about feels a lot like the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie, a lot of what felt pretty intuitive to me is confusing to others

[mastermahan]

My vote is 'somewhere in the middle'.

Pluses: Pine, Pascal, and Wiig turned in great performances. Some good action scenes, with the most creative being the car/foot chase. Some wonderfully over-the-top bit. Good color palate. Max Lord's nose bleeds. The mid-credits cameo.

Minuses: The rules for the Dreamstone changing about every five minutes. No one giving a damn about the poor bastard Pine was possessing. The discomfort of watching Gal Gadot beat some mind controlled Middle Eastern men, almost certainly killing some of them. The later discomfort of watching Gal Gadot make a point of not killing mind controlled American men. The general waste of Cheetah. The often dodgy effects. The failed attempt to make Kristen Wiig *not* look like a cast member from Cats.

Other: Themyscira has no thematic connection to the rest of the plot, but at least it was fun to see. I'm willing to accept one instance of smashing cameras as proof that no one ever gets documented evidence of Wonder Woman, because Wonder Woman just secretly moping for a century was stupid. I don't care about Diana forgetting how to fly for Justice League. Zeus's daughter being immune to electricity is reasonable enough that it doesn't need to be pre-established.

I realize that's just a list, not a comprehensive response. I only watched last night and I'm still digesting it.

[shadowkat]

Themyscira has no thematic connection to the rest of the plot, but at least it was fun to see.

No, it did. It's subtle, granted.

Themyscira shows Diana cheating to win. When she isn't allowed to win, and declares that it is unfair, Robin Wright's character tells her that she cheated, she skipped over part of the challenge and didn't earn the win. You can't cheat or wish things to happen, you have to do the hard work.

She'd forgotten that. Then later, with the wish stone and Barbara, and Lord, she realizes both are cheating to win. She tries to get across to both that's not how it works. The theme is kind of confused by the whole bit with Steve Trevor cheating death by possessing another body - but that's there too - "cheats" death.
There's a heavy theme about cheating.

The fact you didn't pick up on it is partly due to the horrible execution of the film.

[superfangirl1]

So is Max lord going to face any consequences for all the chaos he cause in the world? He did almost cause Nuclear armageddon.

I feel bad for the guy that Steve Trevor soul possessed? Is he going to wonder about the memory lapse of lost time that happened to him?

Other then those questions. I enjoy the movie.

Really like the White House fight scene and the invisible jet scene.

[mastermahan]

He's absolutely going to wonder. He's suddenly in DC in the middle of a riot. His body has some unexplained bruises. There's an excellent chance the Secret Service is going to talk to him about the eyewitness reports of him invading the White House and assaulting security. He might even find evidence that he was raped during his blackout.

And someone stole his Rolex.

[leahandillyana]

I knew it will be bad, but to top it the film managed to be incredibly racist against multiple ethnic groups, to the point I'm almost impressed.

[thanekos]

It's really something how Wiig's character becoming " Cheetah " feels goofy and superfluous - " Uh, here's somebody Wonder Woman can fistfight that's.. faithful.. to the source material. Yeah. "

" I want to be an apex predator " and prior wearing of cheetah print aside, you get the feeling Wiig could've been playing a version of the Silver Swan or someone else who could directly fight Wonder Woman, and it would've been the exact same thing.

[mastermahan]

Yeah, I kept expecting the magic to make her bestial or just wear leopard print. Suddenly deciding she wants to be a furry is completely out of left field.

[dan_ingram]

B Plus, is my rating.

I would certainly have seen it again in theaters, and think it would have been better there. Ah well.

Put me down as one of those confused as to why they had Steve's character swipe someone else's body. All the things the Dream Stone could do, and it couldn't make Steve a new body?

[mastermahan]

The only way Steve being in someone else's body matters is that it gives him and Diana clothes to try on and an apartment to commit rape in. But, they could have just had a clothing montage at the mall and gone to her place.

I wonder if the possession angle is a holdover from a previous script or something. He gets details like a career and his own fashion sense, but not an actual name. It's a weirdly unexplored, underused idea.

[shakalooloo]

Maybe the possessee can return in the third movie as the DCEU Doctor Psycho, out for revenge with a legitimate grievance but terrible methods.

[shadowkat]

All the things the Dream Stone could do, and it couldn't make Steve a new body?

Or at the very least resurrect his body? That would have worked better. It would have made sense - if her powers or strength was what was resurrecting his body. The reason she was losing strength and being made vulnerable was because that gave him life. Therefore - revoking her wish is more painful.

But having him possess someone else's body - made me wonder, first why it was depowering her. That confused me - for a while I thought Barbara's wish had stolen Diana's powers. When I realized no, it was Diana's wish that was taking way her powers and allowing Steve's spirit to possess another man's body, I couldn't understand why she just didn't revoke the wish. I mean she was hurting the other man and herself and the world for some guy who died 70 years ago. They executed that wrong.

[beoweasel]

See, at first (and what I think the director and writers were originally going with before all the reshoots) I assumed the Wishing Stone putting Steve's spirit into someone else's body instead of just bringing him back to life was to show the underlying nature of the stone: It's unable to create anything, it can only take pre-existing things and put them in the wisher's possession.

You can see that example in Steve not being returned to life, only being put in someone else's body and a news broadcast about Lord coming into direct control of half the world's oil. Note that they're not saying that new oil has been found, only that Lord now owns it. To me, that suggested that the oil in other lands was displaced by the Stone and put into the reservoirs that Lord had been drilling earlier.

But then the Not-Reagan wishes for a bunch of tactical warheads and he gets them all, and they seem to have been literally conjured out of the air (which is why they all 'poof' when Not-Reagan renounces his wish).

See, that's what I -think- was the original idea, that the stone can't create, only take. And now that I've given it further thought, it makes narrative sense. For example, when Minerva makes her wish to be like Diana, the stone was slowly draining away Diana's powers and giving them to her, which is why Diana was getting weaker. I think that's why Diana donned the armor initially, in her weakened state, she knew she couldn't take Barbara in an one-on-one fight, and it had to be a fight to the death (or to force Barbara to renounce it) in order for Diana to get her full strength back.

[mazway_75]

Wiig was just odd casting. I mean, she's good actress in other material but just never felt a right fit here and that hurt the evolution of Barbara.

[shadowkat]

I think they were trying to go for comedic casting - which, I don't think worked. I agree Wiig felt off to me too.

[akodo_rokku]

Should definitely have been edited down by 30-45 minutes. Most of the first 90 minutes drags. I think Chris Pine might have been high for his entire performance? At no point do they explain why he came back in a random dude's body, and then Steve and Diana rape that guy.

The last hour really picks up and truth overcoming selfishness is lovely. And Pedro Pascal plays a great Donald Trump.

Probably a C, maybe C+ overall. Not the aggressively bad edgy stuff that Snyder made, but nowhere near the quality of Shazam, BoP, or Wondy 1.

[shadowkat]

I'd agree with your grade - although I put it closer to C-. It's nowhere near the Chris Nolan Batman films, or Shazam and Wonder Woman 1, I'd put it more in line with Chris Reeves Superman II to be honest, although I liked that film a lot better.

Also agree that they could have shaved 30-40 minutes off it. Steve Trevor doesn't quite work. I think they'd have been better off if he showed up resurrected in his own body and not possessing someone else's (I was distracted by that for some of the same reasons you were and others). If they wanted to go that route - they should have made the price being the man's life Steve was taking over. Maybe introduce people who losing him - and make her realize what she was doing was selfish? Instead they made the price she paid her own powers and immortality/invulnerability - which doesn't work here - it would have if Steve came back in his own body and her body was powering his and keeping his resurrected one intact (which I've seen done elsewhere). But by having him possess someone else's -- and her price being her powers..it made her look really kind of self-centered. I get why they did it - they were going for the whole no bad guys no good guys thing - but I don't think it worked here.

Some good ideas, but bad execution.

[thosefew]

At some point in development was the Dreamstone supposed to be an Eclipso Gem?

[deh_tommy]

Wikipedia tells me the Dream Stone was created by the Greek God Dolos, who in the comics may or may not have been an obscure Wonder Woman villain called the Duke of Deception, so that’s a neat-ish throwback.

[shadowkat]

I agree it's been getting mixed reviews.

It reminded me a little of Superman II (Chris Reeves Superman II) in the quality department. Some are comparing it to Superman IV - but I wouldn't go that far, it's watchable. My attention did wander though and I found portions cringe inducing.

They have good intentions in the theme department - sexual harassment, the idea of no real villains - just misunderstood people who are deeply insecure, and the whole wish-fulfillment bit.

But the execution is horrible. We go from the excellent Paradise Island sequence, to a poorly conceived (and intentionally comical - although I didn't find it funny so much as silly 80s retro) heist on a mall jewelry store. And Wonder Woman, for some reason or other feels inclined to stop. IDK why, I mean - a cop could have handled that. Why risk exposure over it? And why would she be there to begin with?
She's kind of high fashion?

Then we go to the Smithsonian, and can Barbara Minerva be any more stereotypical? I was disappointed in what they did with her - she felt very cartoonish to me. Which went with the whole comic-booky feel of the film. I liked the first film in part, because it avoided it. This one seems to embrace it.
And when Minerva does the whole wish thing, she goes down the predictable road of exploiting it for vengeance against everyone who made her feel powerless. I'd hoped for more nuance. And really - turn her into a large Cat? And if you are going to do that - can you please do a better job of it?

It was comic booky, in a way that I felt other films had successfully pulled away from. It also lacked what the first one had - which was relatable characters serving as a counter-point to Diana's Goddess.

Steve Trevor didn't work. She's pining for a guy who has been dead for 50 some years? Still? I'd have bought it if it were taking place in say the 1950s or 60s or even the early 70s. But honestly, 50 years? And she's still hung up on a guy she knew for a very short period of time. (Did they even really hook up in the first film?) She lost a lot of people in that first film - people she knew longer than him - why wish him back? And when he comes back - he's possessing another man's body - and they aren't concerned? I kept worrying about the poor guy that he had possessed. She also doesn't seem to care that he could possess that guy forever, and that guy would have no life.
I know why the writers did that - they thought it clever, and funny. But it doesn't work - and puts both Diana and Steve in a bad light. She revokes her wish not for that poor guy, or because of what is it costing him - but because it's weakening her. Bad execution right there.

Also Diana seems to be a cipher in her own movie - she gets the least character development. Pascale gets the most (which is in keeping with DC films - the villains always get the most character development in DC films for some reason). Minerva also doesn't get that much - and is rendered a kind of feminist cliche.

I was disappointed. It does have some good bits here and there. The fact that the villains aren't really to blame, and no one is good or bad in the film and everyone makes huge mistakes - to get what they want - works on a certain level, but required better execution. Also the Paradise Island prologue is excellent. Steve trying on clothes, amusing. But other than that...a weak entry and far too long for what it is trying to do.

I gave it a C -.

[akodo_rokku]

Steve's been dead for close to 70 years, actually, since he died during World War I.

The idea that Diana would close her heart off that long is laughable for any other version of the character.

[superfangirl1]

Also curious about Barbara getting a second wish? The limit of Metro lowest power was one wish per person. After Barbara saved Maxwell lord from Wonder Woman and Steve at the White House. They escape in the helicopter to go to the satellite military base.

Maxwell says he give her anything she wants for helping him. So Barbara wish to be Apex predator. But how did that happened? Did Maxwell have a personnel at the military base grant Barbara wish for her?

I mean Barbara already made a wish to the stone to be like Diana and got powers , before Maxwell absorb it.

[thezmage]

I think she renounced her old wish and then made a new wish.

[blueprintstyles]

I enjoyed it, Pascal knocked it out of the park, Barbara had a good arc and I think she might come back as Cheetah, they left it a little vague whether she fully renounced her wish or not. It was written and shot like an 80's movie you'd revisit, even down to scenes with questionable consent. It could have used another minute of dialogue to remove that black mark, but other than that I had a good time.

Wonder Woman: Who needs consent when your boyfriend is involved?

[jeyl]

I HATED this movie. Diana having sex with a total stranger who's body is possessed by her dead boyfriend and saying that 'MAYBE' she'll look into why this is happening is just appalling. She literally took sexual advantage of a total stranger's body without consent! How is nobody seeing this as something horribly wrong?! The fact that she doesn't even consider that her wish could have KILLED this person makes it so much worse. There is so much wrong going on but the film treats it like it should be a joyful occasion. No. NO NO NO!

And how the heck did this portrayal of Maxwell Lord turn out to be so stupid? This was the one character who's abilities were so strong that Wonder Woman had to kill him in order to make him stop. But here, he's someone who's powers are limited to bamboozling people into making passive wishes where he can cherry pick the part of what they lose in making said wish. Thats just... bad. I can't take it seriously even in the context of even the non-Richard Donner Superman films.

And stealing the jet reminded me a lot of Battlefield Earth. They walk up to this jet that's just sitting on the tarmac fully fueled and they know how to fly with only a few seconds of trial and error. They are also not wearing flight gear to protect them from g-forces or lack of oxygen at higher altitudes. Plus, even with added fuel tanks on the wings, there is no way that plane can make it all the way to Egypt. I guess we can add stealing fuel from other airports on Diana's heroic resume.

[ap0cryphal]

I for one was truly chuffed by how people in the year 2020 still can't write Arabs beyond bloodthirsty savages or literal children. Was True Lies written, like, yesterday? It's fucking inexcusable.

Bonus points for Cheetah's villain origin, of course. Remember kids, violence is always bad.

Looking beyond the film, it's truly gratifying to see western nerddom in general stuck to nitpicking the plot holes of why ghost steve can fly jets now, or how that one jet made it to Egypt on one tank of fuel. Nice, folks. Good to see all attention on the stuff that actually matters.

[deh_tommy]

That was okay. Nothing too great, nothing too terrible. Granted, I didn’t like the first film nearly as much as others do, so that’s probably why I wasn’t as disappointed as others might be. Maxwell Lord and Wonder Woman were wonderful, at least.

Really, the big problems I have with this one are the same ones I had with the last one - that’s sort of racist in their depiction of the mooks, that doesn’t take advantage of the setting at all (instead only really using the setting so they can get some cool shots in)(like seriously, your film is called 1984 and there’s barely any connection to both the time period and the Orwell novel which is what usually comes to mind when one brings up that year), there’s a big cool but unnecessary CGI third act battle that muddles with the message a bit, the final boss looked horrendous (Taylor Swift in Cats was a better looking Cheetah than this Cheetah - heck, Cats the stage show has better looking Cheetahs than Cheetah here) and the tone goes all over the place.

I don’t know, everyone’s already said what else I like and dislike about the film better than I can. Except I will single out... the whole Steve thing. Yikes. I’m surprised I haven’t seen more outrage over this.

[zachbeacon]

#releasethebuttholecut

[shadwing]

Finally saw it and finally put my finger on the big problem with the film IMO.

Its not a film set in the 80's, its an 80's film. And rather than realizing the problematic issues with late 70's early 80's films and trying to update them for a 2020 audience (portryal of Arabs for example) the film played in almost PAINFULLY straight and laid some things on WAY too thick while underselling other things

The Steve situation for example, as my roommate pointed out the whole body swapping hijacking is an old trope. See: Ghost, however these are old tropes and plots for a reason. Now if you use them more horrific aspects are seen and acknowledged, WW84 didn't even touch on it. ESPECIALLY coming from Wonder Woman for example, I mean for an all loving hero who values all life she didn't give two craps about the guy Steve hijacked and while it wasn't as bad as I feared it wasn't a good look for Diana overall.

Barbara/Cheetah was also laid on way too thick, her whole arc was about as subtle as a runaway train yet her 'price' was so subtle my roommate thought that the stone really DID steal Diana's powers and give them to Barbara until the movie bluntly stated "No thats not how it worked" Which added to the mess.

Some of the action sequences were so over the farking top I sat there going "Really?" The ENTIRE Mail Fight, Catching the bullet with the lasso during the Truck Chase for example, again on par with the craziness of 80's action flicks but again this is 2020, we've gone beyond that. Its like they wanted to capture the fun, madness and yes wonder of 80's comics and action films but missed the mark, everything was SO over the top and over dramatized that it fell flat, the parts that were to be taken seriously...couldn't be.

WW84 is a turn your brain off 80's superhero flick, which is okay except its not the 1980's anymore, people are going in expecting a good successor to the first film, they got a mish mash of 80's action tropes with a 'moral message' delivered by sledge hammer that comes off badly.

[zachbeacon]

I want to say this is poorly edited but after Green Lantern and the Snyder movies maybe I have to grade on a curve.

There a bits I like but the bad outweighs the good. I loved Steve finding out about the space program (and his fixation on the fanny pack is hilarious) but then I’m reminded that he and Diana hijacked some poor guy’s body.

(I know people have been suggesting that the first WW should be the only thing they keep when Flashpoint burns everything to the ground but I’m not sure she’s worth saving at this point either. We should just officially make the Snyderverse the Crime Syndicate Earth and move on.)

Didn’t the previous movies make it a point to say Wonder Woman’s existence had been a secret? Between the White House, shopping mall, the highway fight, the WORLDWIDE broadcast, ect I’m not buying it. I know the last one was likely audio only but there were witnesses to everything else.

Cheetah seemed completely unnecessary to this movie and I could do without the “overlooked nerd goes mad with power” archetype for a while. Also her final form is really … something.

Part of me does think it’s a little amusing that the character everyone assumed would be a Trump analog is Hispanic. Considering the state of their finances, this version of Lord is still pretty Trumpy.

Worst. Regan. Ever. (aside from the actual Regan)

So that cameo at the end … why do I get the impression that was supposed to have been a bigger part? Still, glad they ended on a high note.

[shadwing]

Re- Diana being unknown till BvS.

Yes this was Snyder's original plan, she would come to mans world fight in WW1 and then fade from super-heroing till the time of BvS. Hence why the ONLY evidence of Wonder Woman found by Lex/Bruce was that single photo from WW1

Jenkins stated several times she was going to somehow recon that.