Batman / Catwoman #5

[cyberghostface]

 

Comments

[shakalooloo]

Batman couldn't admit that he was a good person? He didn't go boasting about it, sure, but clearly did good things with good intention and had lines that he wouldn't cross, satisifed with each life that he saved.

The number of times he's claimed the moral high ground in an argument with other heroes alone, he clearly thought of himself as a good person. Only those that think themselves good will be judgemental of others.

[akodo_rokku]

Yeah this entire thing is weird. But at least we can firmly place this whole series in an Elseworlds.

[deh_tommy]

Wasn’t this book originally meant to be Batman #86-97? That’s also aligns with how Tom King sees (or at least how he has written) Batman as a character.

[tinygaylaura]

The only thing from it which I'd like to see adapted into the main continuity is Batman having a daughter who is a lesbian superhero.

Everything else belongs as far away from DC continuity as possible

[strejdaking]

Why? It doesn't really contradict anything.

[jlbarnett]

I can believe Batman doesn't think he's a healthy person, as in stable or completely sane, but I'm not sure he doesn't think he's a good person

[starwolf_oakley]

He said it himself (or Jeph Loeb did) during HUSH. "Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person... and deep down, I'm not."

All right, someone who learns every fighting style there is in order to beat up criminals might have some self-worth issues.

[shakalooloo]

That whole quote is slightly silly. 'Deep down' Superman is 'essentially' a good person? On every level, from surface through to his core, Superman is entirely good.

[donnblake]

Yes. His essence is that of a good person, and it is consistent deep down, as opposed to a person who is a good person on the surface, but otherwise at their core. It's not that you have to dig to get to the goodness that's Superman, it's that if you do dig beneath the aw-shucks Lawful Good Persona, you find more of the same, which is something that Bruce might well find remarkable.

[strejdaking]

"Only those that think themselves good will be judgemental of others"

Why do you think so? I might jsut jsut be hair splitting abotu definitions, but I doNt¨think that's true. People are absolutel capable of extreme self-critique and even self-loathing and self-righteousness. If you ask someone "who are you to judge me", they'll say "anyone". Some people consider matter of highground irrelevant-even if the are only slightly less or similarly, that wouldn't stop them from calling out shittiness.

[shakalooloo]

"Takes one to know one," and all that, eh?

[lordultimus]

I find it really frustrating how, even after breaking up with the Joker, writers make her relationship with the Joker her defining character trait. It sends a rather toxic message that abusers will remain the primary influence in their abusee's lives no matter what.

As over the top writers get with the Batman/Joker dynamic, at least Bruce has a fully defined rogues gallery that can substitute as his archenemy for a run. Harley's enemies tend to be annoyances or quickly forgotten (Harley Sin, anyone?).

[cyberghostface]

“It sends a rather toxic message that abusers will remain the primary influence in their abusee's lives no matter what.”

That’s kind of a stretch. She’s a fictional character who started off as being Joker’s girlfriend and female counterpart (clown themed villain who antagonizes Batman) and that’s always been a defining attribute to the character.

[shakalooloo]

Harley's relationship with the Joker is the inciting incident of her supervillain/hero identity, just as the death of his parents is Bruce's. Of course it's going to be a recurring motif in her stories, and of course she should reference it in a story in which the Joker dies. It would be weirder for her NOT to show up here with such a hate-on.

Judging by the topography of that mask she's wearing though, she seems to have literally cut off her nose to spite her face. Or else it's really squashed up in there, which explains why she gets increasingly monosyllabic.

[tinygaylaura]

Anyone who thinks the Joker is Harley's "True love" should not be allowed to write Harley Quinn

Or women in general

Harley's true love is Poison Ivy. That is canon. End of story

[deh_tommy]

Depends on the story. Joker/Harley tends to have two modes: one where there’s a clear power imbalance and Joker is clearly taking advantage of Harley’s love for him (The Animated Series, Injustice, Birds of Prey, the Harley Quinn TV show, Harleen) and one where they’re a trashy Bonnie & Clyde-esque power couple where they’re awful people but they’re awful people together and seem like genuinely happy couple in their own weird way (The Batman, most LEGO Batman stuff, Suicide Squad, the Arkham games). There is room for some variation (I think the Telltale game had Harley as the big criminal kingpin and Joker as the lovesick schmuck being taken advantage of), but that’s the pattern I’ve noticed.

Harley/Ivy is canon in the mainline DC comics continuity, but that doesn’t mean that’s canon in every one, nor should that necessarily be. Some Harleys have never met Ivy. In some cases, a relationship between the two might be a bit inappropriate (Ivy in The Batman was a teenager while Harley was a grown adult, and who knows what was going on in Gotham).

[donnblake]

"Who knows what was going on in Gotham[?])"

Not the showrunners more than five minutes ahead of time, that's for sure!

[cyberghostface]

Yeah it was obvious how the showrunners were making stuff up as they went along. To their credit the show was genuinely fun and one of the best takes on the Batman mythos IMO.

[tinygaylaura]

It was hilarious viewed as a black comedy about the fucked up lives of Gotham's villains

Like an evil version of Friends

[dan_ingram]

Ten, they clearly knew what they were doing ten minutes ahead of time.

Once.

...maybe.

[cyberghostface]

In Gotham she started out as a little girl who was friends with Selina only to magically age her up with some aging ray and then she became a sexpot. It was weird.

As for Harley they had a character who was basically a proto-Harley. For some reason Warner Bros wouldn’t allow the actual Joker on the show so I’m assuming the same with Harley but they got around it with having characters who were basically the same.

[tinygaylaura]

I think they quickly hit the snag that when you are making a Batman show people want to see the Batman villains and realised that since they'd introduced Ivy as a young girl there was no way to do the version of her from the comics

So rather than revealing that "Ivy Pepper" wasn't actually Ivy and introducing an adult woman named Pamela Isley to be Poison Ivy on the show

They decided to do the creepiest thing they possibly could

[tinygaylaura]

I'll be honest I think Joker/Harley is always absolute garbage and utterly inferior to Harley/Ivy

Except in The Batman where like you say Ivy is too young for her so instead I hope she ends up with a different woman

Also did Harley exist in Gotham? I don't remember her but that show had a lot going on and none of it was coherent so I may have forgot

[donnblake]

Well, Barbara spent about five minutes doing a Harleyesque turn to one of the proto-Jokers before establishing herself as a crime boss in her own right. That proto-Joker's secret twin who later got all Joker-y himself had a henchwoman named Ecco who wore some outfits evocative of Harley, but didn't share her name or background.

[tinygaylaura]

"I hate everything about that sentence"

[donnblake]

It was one of three separate and unrelated times that someone on the show turned out to have a secret twin!

[deh_tommy]

Can’t say I agree (I don’t think one is inherently superior to the other, and in the end that’s all down to the execution), but different strokes I suppose.

Kinda? Sorta? I could be wrong, I don’t think the show had Harleen Quinzel, but they did have a very suspicious Harley Quinn-like figure or two helping out the maybe-not-Joker.