How not to write the Dynamic Duo dynamic - Robin and Batman #2

[icon_uk]

I pondered long and hard about whether to post this and I'm still not quite sure I made the right choice.

I genuinely don't like posting scans from comics I vehemently disagree with, it's a lot less fun than I normally aim for, and yet sometimes, something seems just SO off that I feel it needs to be looked at.

Case in point, this scene from "Robin and Batman #2" by Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen


Now Robin has, for most of his existence, been a difficult character to justify. He's a kid, regularly fighting murderous criminals, and only really works in the fantastical realm of comics. If you look too closely at the concept the seams show, and they are problematic.

If a grown man comes across a traumatised, vengeful child with anger issues, then the correct course of action is to give them a (mutually consented upon) hug, a safe environment to live in, and lots of therapy. You don't put them in a costume and let them to fight killer clowns and mobsters whilst armed with some boomerangs. But that's what Batman does with Dick Grayson.

Now in the original situation it was just ignored. Bruce took in Dick Grayson and let him become Robin to catch the criminals who killed his parents. He cares about Dick (and later Jason, and Tim and so on and so on) and wants what's best for them even WHEN they're being beaten up by killers with ice cannons, a villain with a duality fetish, murderous shapeshifters or a puzzle based guy who plays hangman with real rope!

Bruce loves his kids, would do aything for them and, like any good parent/guardian, wants them to have a better life than he did, and that doesn't clash with the concept of child endangerment because the laws of comics say it doesn't.

With more recent iterations, which take Batman more/too seriously, this becomes a serious issue because how can you admire your realistic, grim "Dark Knight" seriously when he has a pre-teenage kid fighting superpowered psychopaths by his side? Because that's clearly the only improbable aspect of a grown non-superpowered man in a furry cosplay with a 12 foot long cape fighting supercriminals.

The ultimate extension of this is probably Frank Miller's "All Star Batman and Robin", which has Bruce leaving Dick in the Batcave and expecting him to eat rats to survive if necessary. And that's about as low as it is possible to imagine the bar being set. And yet....

In #2 of "Robin and Batman", for his 12th birthday, Batman takes Robin up to the Justce League satellite, where he meets his idols, and also gets to meet and hang out with the other sidekicks for the first time. The kids even manage to sneak off together without the heroes knowing and have some fun stopping bad guyd as a nascent team, then sneaking back before anyone notices.

and when they return....


So far, so adorably wholesome, right?







I don't know about anyone else, but I have rarely agreed with Alfred more than in that moment.

See, this isn't even Batman as a bad parent, because I have no issue with him having to learn on the job when it comes to raising a kid, every parent does. This is Batman being a completely horrible person who misses the point of being a parent.entirely.

"I had a crap childhood, so my kids should too" is possibly the WORST possible take on Batman and Robin I can think of.

Compare and contrast with his from Detective Comics 574



or this from Young Justice:

Watch on YouTube

Even if this ends with Batman learning "a valuable lesson" and having a realisation that Dick needs more of a life than cynical paranoia, it still feels wrong, because how could someone with that lack of regard, that lack of basic human emotion, ever have felt the emotional connection required for Bruce Wayne to take in Dick Grayson in the first place?

Comments

[owlbrigade1]

Yeah, that isn't a good look. I always thought the key to Batman was that he wanted kids to have the childhood he didn't. That that was the whole point of his crusade against crime.

This seems more in line with that quote about the difference between Batman an The Punisher. This is someone writing The Punisher and sticking him in Batman's cowl.

[icon_uk]

Yup, I remember it from a comment on this youtube clip from the last JLU episode, where Batman hold's the hand of the reality warping Ace whilst she's dying; (And oh gods I shouldn't have watched that again, it breaks my heart EVERY SINGLE TIME, even after all these years)

"If you can't imagine your version of Batman comforting a dying child, that's not Batman, that's the Punisher in a funny hat"

Though that poster also admits it's not an original quote, but can't recall the source.

[doctor_spanky]

Yikes this sucks! "I never had a good childhood so why should he" is like a super textbook attitude for an emotionally abusive parent. How are you supposed to root for a character like that?

Since the new season of Young Justice is airing right now, it reminds me how much I really appreciate that their version of Batman is so warm and supportive, while still being an authority figure

[icon_uk]

Oooh, thank you for the reminder, I meant to add that moment from YJ to the post, and forgot!

[super_fly]

This is the kind of shit I'd expect from Frank Miller's All-Star "Make Robin Hunt For Rats To Eat" Batman but not anywhere else.

[onsokumaru]

My issue is that both him and Robin are focusing on psychological weakness.
But the only reason Robin would have to take them down is if they are mind controlled or if something change them to the point they become villains. In which case all that psycho babble is going to be useless.

[icon_uk]

That's a really good point I had overlooked completely!

In terms of villainy it might still have some effectiveness, but not for the mind control situation.

[thezmage]

That’s why I never bought Batman’s excuse in Tower of Babel either

[zachbeacon]

Yep, Dick took out a brainwashed Hal Jordan by eploiting exploiting GL's weaknesses, not Hal's.

[donnblake]

Yeah- that's the sort of thing that suggests that Batman considers he might wind up on the other side of the superheroes as they are not as potential mind-controlled pawns of Starro or what have you.

And taken on its own, as a Batman Expy or an Elseworld, I wouldn't necessarily take issue with that. On its face, the idea that a billionaire who watched his parents gunned down, spent years training with a wide assortment of often quite shady spies, martial artists and assassins, and then returned to a crime ridden dystopia of a city where corruption was a way of life- that that guy might have trust issues? Yeah, I can buy it.

Year One Batman having plans to deal with Superman makes as much sense as Year One Batman having plans to deal with corrupt cops or politicians- this is not someone who will be predisposed to trust the system, and he won't have had opportunity to work out who he can trust.

Batman who has a teleporter pad to League headquarters training Robin to consider how to take Donna Troy out in a first strike? That only tracks to me if Batman's already well on his way to a plan that involves ruling Gotham with an iron fist.

[tinygaylaura]

The fact of the matter is that even the silver age version of Aqualad could take down Batman and Robin with one hand tied behind his back without even breaking a sweat

Any time a writer tries to act like Batman is some unstoppable bad ass who could totally beat anyone with actual superpowers because He's The Goddamn Batman it's just a level of utterly embarassing cringe that's even worse than that stupid "The Boys" garbage that Garth Ennis wrote

It's like watching a child on the schoolyard taunting their idiot friends about how "My dad is way cooler than YOUR dad!"

Bruce

Your a fucked up orphan in what's basically just the worlds most expensive fursuit. Robin is a child in tights

If either of you fought the Teen Titans or the Justice League or hell even the Inferior Five what would happen is that you'd get to spend the next year or so learning all the new kinds of pain a human body can experience while going through extensive physical therapy after suffering the single most brutal and one sided ass kicking since that time the WWE had Brock Lesnar fight a one legged boy less than half his size

.....

Yes that actually happened I wish I made that up but humanity has no limits to our capacity for madness and cruelty

[bradygirl_12]

Yeah, this isn't the way I see these two at all. Despite Bruce's emotional stumbles, he wouldn't treat Dick this way. I thought this was going to be an interesting book but this scene turns me off.

[tinygaylaura]

This is less an emotional stumble and more an emotional Million Dollar Baby

[filthysize]

Man, I haven't quite enjoyed the YJ revival, but thanks for the reminder that they were firing on all cylinders in Season 1. Love that scene.

[zachbeacon]

Being a human among gods it would be suicidal NOT to have some sort of plan if things went wrong but this seems like a really underhanded way of behaving especially from someone who is right up there with Superman and Alan Scott in terms of being beloved by the superhero community.

And it's just an awful thing for Bruce to make him do.

Also, while I like the art, I can't get over how much I associate both the artist and a lot of the costume elements with Damian, not Dick.

[tinygaylaura]

Being a human among gods it would be suicidal to fight said gods, in any situation, for any reason

Especially given that Bruce can't even stop his own regular human rogues before they've got at least a death toll in the double digits

Or to put it another way, to paraphrase a certain musical

Superman: Bruce's rogues are only famous because of the crimes they get away with

Have you ever heard of Metallo? The Prankster? The Toyman?

Civillian: No?

Superman: Exactly

BECAUSE I DO MY GODDAMN JOB

[tinygaylaura]

Well Jeff Lemire has done the impossible

He's created a version of Batman SO SHITTY that I would genuinely take the All Star Batman and Robin version over this

[mazway_75]

Wow, so bad.

I remember when that "Batman's plans used against JLA" story hit, there was a bit where Titans and Young Justice wonder if Batman does this to his teammates, do his partners to their teams?

Titans never really followed on it by YJ did with Robin telling the team "I'm not him, I don't agree with him, you're my friends." Maybe on some level but this entire "figure out how to do it right off" is so poor a take.

[icon_uk]

Though I did like the fanfic I read where Dick goes to visit Lois and Clark, and they discuss the Tower of Babel arc, and Lois asks if Dick thinks Bruce has a file on how to take HIM down, and Dick says something along the lines of

"I genuinely don't know, but I really hope so. Because if I were to be out of control, and my body was being used to hurt innocent people, I would hope that would be someone out there who would know how to stop me and have the courage to do it.

It would probably destroy him to do it to one of his family, but he would do it, and I'd be grateful to him for that."

[shakalooloo]

Yikes, are we sure this isn't some attempt to continue Crazy Steve's adventures without Miller?

[tinygaylaura]

*Irish Bartending Ninja voice* "He doesn't SPARE a ONE of them

He doesn't SPARE a ONE

The GODDAMN BATMAN"

[lego_joker]

I think the Absolute worst part about all this is how petulant Batman sounds in that last panel.

That's what really puts it below and beyond even Miller's worst takes on Bruce: those takes might drown their internal monologues in self-pity, but they'd never voice it aloud. Their whole thing is Must Never Be Vulnerable, Ever.

[beyondthefringe]

I could see Batman asking Dick to present his thoughts on the other Titans in terms of strengths and weaknesses, both to evaluate them as potential allies and enemies, but not necessarily in a "here's how I'd take them all out."

My image of Batman is as a tactician, a detective, and a strategist, who's always working the angles towards his standard of success, and that naturally incorporates how to work with a team.

This scene though just feels so cynical... now MAYBE if this was supposed to be an early Bruce who hasn't yet been softened up by Dick's presence, a Bruce who hasn't yet learned to let people in... (going back to the theory that he needs a Robin to bring light and joy into the partnership, or what-have-you... the reasoning Tim made after Jason's death.)

I'm just not a Jeff Lemire fan, his writing doesn't always do it for me.

[icon_uk]

Agreed, I could see Batman asking Dick for his thoughts, and even though Dick would say "Why would I want to do that, they're my friends?" he would probably still have some ideas, but would be very uncomfortable being THAT ruthless.

This scene adds the element that it was never about being a treat for his birthday, that this was Bruces misssion for Dick all along. Dick was only going to be allowed to meet the other sidekicks if he carried out a point by point breakdown on taking them out on his return.

[an_idol_mind]

If Batman lacks any semblance of humanity, there's no point in reading about him.

[leahandillyana]

This is a very good scene. From Watsonian perspective, it's very in-character for Bruce in modern interpretation of his character, as well as explains Dick's tendency to use psychology to hurt people. Will elaborate later.

[leahandillyana]

So:
-being a non-powered superhero requires years of training. Giving that Batman and similar characters don't have supernatural means of prolonging them staying in optimal physical form for decades, they have no choice but to start training successors at a very young age. Think about ballet - to be able to perfom the most famous choreography, dancers HAVE to start training at five, with seven year olds being often considered too old to start ballet training. And regardless of when you start, by thirty your body will be so fucked that not only can you no longer dance, but you will have problems with things most thirty year olds are perfectly capable of.
-last thirty years of events both canonical and elseworldly proves that Batman's intense distrust of all his allies was a good thing. A hero turning evil is a cliche at this point. And having no superpowers yourself, both Batman and his sidekicks need to be experts at psychological manipulation.
-furthermore, this is also perfectly in character for Dick. Dick acts very friendly towards everyone who is not openly antagonistic, but time after time he has shown to attack his friends and lovers where it hurts the most the moment they inconvenience him or try to get him out of the most recent pity party. He's particularly nasty to Babs, Kory, Donna, and Roy.
All in all, this story fits well into what we know of both Bruce and Dick.

[tripodeca113]

Superman suddenly flies into the Batcave and grabs Batman by the neck.

"I'm going to take that child away from you. If you get any funny ideas, I want you to remember that I can do this whenever I want."

Batman is no longer allowed to sit at the big table on the Justice League satellite.

[shakalooloo]

On a second read-through, I'm just picking up on the fact that Batman mentioning how he never had an enjoyable childhood is a direct dig at the man who raised him STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM. Another layer of Bat-dickery.

[jlbarnett]

a Bruce this emotionally dead wouldn't consider it a direct dig, because he wouldn't consider Alfred as having the job to give him a happy childhood

[jaxjyls]

This didn't bother me since I'm so use to Batman being an asshole by default, which I guess is a problem in of itself