Sabretooth #4-5: There And Back Again

[superboyprime]

Comments

[blues32]

Ah, I see, I see! So all Third Eye did was convince people to stop having kids all willy nilly without a care for what happens to them (ie, they get stored in a tank somewhere). And the Quiet Council said, "Responsible family planning? Oh, no, no, no, no. We can't have that." and tossed him into the pit.

Oya and Nekra still deserved to be down there though. They didn't have to kill those pirates or whatever. Just thoroughly damage the ship, leave their life boats and what have you, and leave.

MAAAYBE Madison should have considered leaving with Danger if she got the boot? I'm sure that's part of the reason she's pissed off now.

So...how did those in the pit get out? Did they get or did Sabretooth alone escape?

[lordultimus]

They all got out, including guys like Nanny and Orphan-Maker.

[giraffesforever]

Positive changes were made to the status quo, and Sabretooth never got treated as a cool anti-hero? I'll be damned, a villain book I can appreciate!

[blues32]

I was curious about those two. Which begs the question...does this reveal that Nature Girl and Curse AREN'T where they should be?

[alliterator]

"So all Third Eye did was convince people to stop having kids all willy nilly without a care for what happens to them (ie, they get stored in a tank somewhere). And the Quiet Council said, "Responsible family planning? Oh, no, no, no, no. We can't have that." and tossed him into the pit."

We actually only have Third Eye's own word for what he did and he's not really a reliable narrator.

"Oya and Nekra still deserved to be down there though. They didn't have to kill those pirates or whatever. Just thoroughly damage the ship, leave their life boats and what have you, and leave."

I mean, if the pirates attacked them, then they were killing in self-defense. The issue isn't that they killed them, the issue is that they killed with without being a member of X-Force, which has explicit permission to kill humans. This is pure hypocrisy on Xavier's part.

[mastermahan]

We actually only have Third Eye's own word for what he did and he's not really a reliable narrator.

How do you know he's not a reliable narrator? He hasn't done anything to indicate he might be lying. We do know he's not lying about which law he broke.

Oya and Nekra's case seems the most ambiguous. Is it really self-defense if you can't die? Even without resurrection, Nekra is bulletproof-level invulnerable when she has her powers up. Human pirates shouldn't have been any threat.

In general, I'm against private groups of citizens deciding to kill people. I'm not thrilled about governments killing people either. Is it hypocritical for a government to punish murder when said government also kills? That's not an easy question.*

*Xavier is clearly a dick, though.

[blues32]

I was curious about that. Third Eye was introduced in this series, wasn't he? How can we establish a that he's an unreliable narrator without a past history of lying? He's pretty much admitting to his crime. The problem is that the law itself is a vague pile of garbage. Laws should be pointing out what you should NOT do, not what you should do. "Make More Mutants" isn't a law, it sounds like advice.

[alliterator]

"How do you know he's not a reliable narrator? He hasn't done anything to indicate he might be lying."

Alright, a couple of things:
1. He's a brand new character created by Victor LaValle, an author well known for his unreliable narrator characters.
2. We've seen Stacy X handing out contraceptives. If this didn't get HER thrown into the Pit, why would convincing people to simply not have babies get Third Eye thrown in?
3. He says that Melter got thrown in the Pit for wanting a "bigger role" on the island, but we've actually SEEN what Melter did and what he was trying to do was spy on the Quiet Council. Sure, you could call that "wanting a bigger role," but, again, that's a pretty interesting way of phrasing things, isn't it?
4. He says the birthrate on Krakoa "dropped a quarter. All 'cause of me." How does he know this? It wouldn't be super apparent if the birth rate DID drop until, you know, many months later, and if it DID drop, how would he know the rate that it dropped?

[laughing_tree]

2. One creates fewer unwanted kids, the other makes fewer *want* to have kids in the first place. Plus, it's not like this entire story hasn't been exploring how the laws get applied inconsistently,

3. Because that's how Melter himself sees it. Word-for-word.

4. He's precognitive to an extent.

[alliterator]

"2. One creates fewer unwanted kids, the other makes fewer *want* to have kids in the first place."

It creates the same effect: less kids.

"3. Because that's how Melter himself sees it. Word-for-word."

Yes, but that's not what Melter actually DID. Melter may have wanted to have a bigger role, but what he DID was try to spy on the Quiet Council.

"4. He's precognitive to an extent."

He can see the future so precisely that he knows it will drop exactly 25%?

Again, I don't think he's lying, per se. I think he's bending the truth to make himself look better.

[laughing_tree]

2. Laws -- or more relevantly, their enforcement -- don't only care about effects. Merciful assisted suicide and convincing someone to kill themselves both result in the same effect of a dead person, but they're very different things.

3. I mean, why take Xavier as the reliable narrator there? Melter was going around blasting the landscape. Hardly stealthy behavior. It's the last thing someone trying to sneak up on a place would do.

4. He doesn't say "exactly 25%." I figure he was just giving an approximation.

I think it's possible there's more to his story, but I think it's just as likely there isn't. Him being punished for what he claims is in keeping with how LaValle depicts Krakoa throughout the story.

[alliterator]

"2. Laws -- or more relevantly, their enforcement -- don't only care about effects. Merciful assisted suicide and convincing someone to kill themselves both result in the same effect of a dead person, but they're very different things."

This is why vague laws are discouraged, because there's a different between "assisted suicide" and "murder." However, the third law is very vague, being simply "Make More Mutants." It doesn't say how or why, nor does it say that you have to make more mutants. In fact, Legion of X #1 clearly states that they "cannot and must not enforce a doctrine of compulsory reproduction":


Now, this is Nightcrawler's own interpretation and he wasn't at their sentencing, but, again, Stacy X was handing out contraceptives after the Hellfire Gala and if telling people their future to stop them from having babies is unacceptable, why isn't giving people contraceptives? What is the difference here?

"I think it's possible there's more to his story, but I think it's just as likely there isn't."

Once again, I think it's highly unlikely that Victor LaValle would introduce a character that is a reliable narrator. He is well known for writing unreliable narrator characters. And we know very little about Third Eye, only that he was trained by his father to be an "arcane assassin."

[laughing_tree]

"Stacy X was handing out contraceptives after the Hellfire Gala and if telling people their future to stop them from having babies is unacceptable, why isn't giving people contraceptives? What is the difference here?"

One is about giving people a choice. The other is about encouraging them to make one of those choices. Not too dissimilar from the assisted suicide/talking someone into suicide dichotomy I mentioned.

[alliterator]

"One is about giving people a choice. The other is about encouraging them to make one of those choices."

See, if he was just encouraging them to make a choice, it would fall in line with Stacy X. He was saying "Hey, you shouldn't do this and here's why" and Stacy X was going "If you are going to do this, you should use this" and both are giving people options.

But I think what happened was he was taking away their choice, forcing them to experience what will happen in the future if they don't do it. Did he ask if they wanted to see the future? Or did he just thrust it upon them?

[blues32]

Third Eye's explanation seems pretty sound. Just putting the spare babies in what basically amounts to storage is pretty messed up and I can totally see wanting to make that stop. It also doesn't sound like a thing the general populace would be informed of. "You don't want this child? That's fine. We can bottle it up for later." Doesn't really sound like it would fly.

These were normal pirates. No cybernetic enhancements, no advanced weaponry. The two of them could have easily taken them out without killing them. A little ice here, a few broken arms there. No, I'm inclined to believe the pair killed the pirates intentionally. Oya is mentally troubled, believing herself a monster and monsters don't spare the enemy. Nekra is powered by hatred.

[alliterator]

"Third Eye's explanation seems pretty sound."

Until you remember that Stacy X was literally handing out contraceptives and nothing has happened to her.

"These were normal pirates. No cybernetic enhancements, no advanced weaponry."

They were normal pirates per Third Eye. I've explained in an above comment why I think he's an unreliable narrator (mainly coming down to the fact that we saw what Melter was doing and it wasn't just "wanting a bigger role," it was trying to find and spy on the Quiet Council, and the fact that he's a brand new character created by Victor LaValle, an author well known for writing unreliable narrator characters).

[shakalooloo]

Danger's inorganic environment was incompatible with Krakoa. But we know that Warlock is seeded throughout the island, so maybe it is the Warlock part of the equation that is in conflict?

[mastermahan]

There was a brief romance subplot between Danger and Warlock in He Who Must Not Be Named's weird corporate X-Factor, so there could have been some jealousy with Danger moving back in with her old boyfriend. Warlock is too nice to sabotage Danger's environment out of envy, but Krakoa might have thought he was helping his bro Warlock out.

Or maybe Doug and friends were trying to keep the Warlock network a secret and Danger's room would have uncovered that?

[agharta75]

Lose the mustache, Fred. Just saying.

[blues32]

Should he lose the mustache or go to a full on beard?

[cainofdreaming]

Full beard, red costume, a sleigh and an advertising campaign with Coca Cola?

[blues32]

He'd make a killing as a Mall Santa.

[lordultimus]

Charles still had a reputation left to ruin?

[dan_ingram]

He reboots it in everyone he helps resurrect

[alliterator]

I love the ending to this mini. I knew Victor LaValle was going to be writing a trilogy of mini-series, I just didn't realize that they would correspond to the Divine Comedy until I read the words "Welcome to Purgatory." Plus, tying it in with the for-profit prison from the Juggernat mini? Heck yeah.

I also love the team up of the Exiles, including the fact that they included Nanny, Orphan-Maker, and Toad. But man, Victor LaValle is great at just writing really good characters that have complicated motivations, but are still ultimately sympathic, like Third Eye or Nekra.

Who would have thought that in the year of our Lord 2022, Nekra would become a great character?