Fantastic Four #45

[superboyprime]

"I asked Brian before he wrapped up if he could clean the table with Doom, because if not we were going to. Brian did a story where he put the toy back in the box. His face got scarred again fighting The Hood and he was a recluse by the end of the story. Yet for many fans, they wanted a continuation of the story that Brian had set up. That wasn’t the stuff I wanted to play with. I wanted Doom! When I was doing SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN, I made sure to put everything back in the box at the end so other writers could play with the Doc Ock they grew up with. The minute Doom was back to a capital D and a clenched fist, every writer wanted to play with him the minute he was the Doom we all grew up with." - Dan Slott

Comments

[capnduckman]

But that's what is horrible. That's what UI don't want to see in comics. Let the characters change, let them grow, make the next writer have to work with what has gone before, stop reseting them!

[goattoucher]

This. Consider X-Men writers: Everyone puts together their preferred team of classic X-Men (created from the 60's to the early 90's) and then one or two pet characters.

Then the next writer comes along, resets to one, puts together -their- team of classics and -their- new pet characters, and we end up with a backlog of characters and stories and wasted potential just so every new writer can play in a pristine sandbox.

What the fuck are editors for, if not to maintain continuity between writers, so that changes stay relevant?

This is one of the biggest problems with American superhero comics: nothing ever really changes.

[zachbeacon]

On the one hand, I do think it's possible to break a character to the point where I don't know why anyone would use them.

*Cough*Beast*cough*

On the other hand, I doubt any Fantastic Four writer has ever asked for permission to restore Johnny Storm to factory settings - they just do it - so I'm not sure why Doom would be treated any differently.

Edit: Though, honestly this is one of the few times I want the Human Torch back in the box the way he was found. Also Franklin. Not a big fan of the way he messed with their powers.

[cyberghostface]

It would have been nice if there were some sort of compromise between the two but in the end Infamous Ironman just wasn't as fun as Superior Spider-Man IMO. The series was just kind of dry. So I can see why the former didn't get as much mileage.

[thanekos]

" When I was doing SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN, I made sure to put everything back in the box at the end so other writers could play with the Doc Ock they grew up with. The minute Doom was back to a capital D and a clenched fist, every writer wanted to play with him the minute he was the Doom we all grew up with. "

The " toybox " metaphor for shared universes, unmasked - all along, there was never anything more to the idea that the " toys " shouldn't be " broken " than the nostalgia of the creators who currently have access to the box, and the laundering of their preservation of same.

(Plus, the implication that the readers should be paying money to enjoy said creators just playing with the toys - not even in slightly novel patterns, but the ones said creators " all grew up with ".)

[goattoucher]

From the Geoff Johns school of narrative writing and editing...

[shakalooloo]

SID FROM TOY STORY DID NOTHING WRONG

[alliterator]

"The " toybox " metaphor for shared universes, unmasked"

I mean, tons of writers have referred to the shared universe of Marvel and DC as "the toybox." This isn't even the first time a writer has referred to "putting the toys back in the toybox." Jonathan Hickman has stated that, too.

The issue is that every writer *knows* that they aren't going to be the *final* writer for this character, especially if they are a popular character. And even if they introduce a bunch of new ideas, new concepts, new characters, the next writer might not want to use them. The trick isn't to FORCE the new writer to use them -- that would be silly, you wouldn't even get a good writer to want to write the characters then -- the trick is to make sure that the new writer can do whatever it is they want by allowing them to use or not use the new elements as they see fit.

This is called "putting the toys back in the toybox." The elements are still there -- Slott still introduced new adopted children for Ben Grimm and Alicia Masters, Johnny is still perma-flamed on, he still has Franklin Richards wondering if he's a mutant or not -- but he also makes sure that if a new writer wants to play with the Classic Galactus or Classic Silver Surfer, they can. They can use the Classic Watcher or play around with Classic Doom. Because they are popular characters that lots of really good writers WANT to play around with.

If you force a writer to write something they DON'T want to write, well, you are going to get a bad story. Editors don't go "Do you want to write *storyline*?" they go "Do you want to write *character*?"

[stubbleupdate]

I have absolutely no desire to read anything Slott is doing with Fantastic Four...or most other writers.

I've read the Waid run, the Aguirre-Sacasa run and the Hickman run and I'm good with that. Maybe I'll read more of the original Kirby/Lee stuff, but otherwise...I've read enough Fantastic Four. And I've loved it. But most other things are just people doing tribute acts. I can't remember if it was Hickman or somebody else who said that "The most 'Stan and Jack' thing to do with the Fantastic Four is something new.

Equally, I'm on a re-read of Aaron's Thor. Not too interested in reading any Thor before (although Fractions audition issues are good, much better than his proper run) or after, because...it's been done.

[stubbleupdate]

And I recognise that I've fallen into the OP's trap of "make people react to a contextless quotation for #engagement" (And can we get into a habit of properly attributing quotations and linking to the sources?
https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/fantastic-farewell-dan-slott-reflects-on-fantastic-four)

But...

Shared and continuing universes rob us of so many interesting things to do with the characters. Yes, I get the appeal of having a core of a character that you can take in all sorts of different directions or just have adventures with from a safe status quo.

But just imagine if the writers of Mad Men Season 8 decided that "mousey little secretary" was the version of Peggy that they wanted, so put the kickass copywriter back in the toybox.

[scorntx]

"A canvas of infinite impossibilities!"
"By which you mean stuff that'll be underdeveloped or just flat-out ignored until the next big event needs fodder."
"Well... yes."
"And that's assuming the current writer doesn't just walk back from all this."
"Quiet, you!"


I mean, yay Galactus is back and will probably just be right back in the old role of "I HUNGER" soon enough, but it undoes what Donny Cates did, so excuse me while I don't give much of a damn about that particular bit at least.
(Gosh. Ewing's Ultimates was six years ago now. Time flies.)

... actually, how many times in the last sixteen years have writers gone to "The Silver Surfer and Galactus working together again"?


And given the tone of Slott's entire run on FF so far (oh wow, forty-five issues already), it'll probably turn out that Alicia isn't really Alicia, she's another Skrull or a Doombot or from another universe and therefore not the 'proper' Alicia, and Franklin actually really IS a Mutant but just used his powers to hide his Mutant-ness because he didn't want to go to Krakoa.

[cainofdreaming]

"A canvas of infinite impossibilities!"
"What, like the multiverse after it got recreated after Secret Wars?"
"Uhh... Yes, kind of like..."
"Only, you know, that was much bigger. This one's just most of a single universe. That was countless of them."
"... If anyone needs me I'll be watching Earth-7856429. They know how to appreciate a cosmic revelation."

[deh_tommy]

Donny Cates didn’t revert Galactus, I think Gerry Duggan did. It happened back in Infinity Wars.

[nyadnar17]

"When I was doing SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN, I made sure to put everything back in the box at the end so other writers could play with the Doc Ock they grew up with"

I am sympathetic, I really am. But come on there has to be a limit. For a lot of people Superior Spiderman WAS the Doc Ock they grew up with. I grew up with my Flash being Wally West and my Green Lantern being Kyle Rayner. Wanna know who "put the toys back in the box" worked out for my generation?

Immortal Hulk is one of the greatest runs of all time in all of comic book media, and it had zero impact on anything outside of it. That fucking sucks.

.....maybe we can at least try it the otherway for a while? Move forward instead of recycling the same old multi-decade old takes on characters? Is this what I have to look forward with the X-men? After the Krotian age we are gonna move them back to Winchester in high school being taught by Charles Xavier?

[alliterator]

"For a lot of people Superior Spiderman WAS the Doc Ock they grew up with."

If Superior Spider-Man was the ONLY Doc Ock they ever read, that would be...really weird.

[zachbeacon]

Slott is all over the place as a writer (and so is his F4 run) but I can't help but notice that his "toybox" quote focuses on Otto and not Peter. I really wish we could have a return of the Spider-Man that existed before Slott and co's BND.

[shakalooloo]

Why should Richards be the only one to possess a Forever Gate? Because it was built AROUND an immovable universal fault that happened to be located at the Baxter Building. Without that raw material, Doom cannot build a Forever Gate.

Slott forgetting the details he himself introduced!

[laughing_tree]

Unless Doom found a way around that through all the scans mentioned in the second-to-last panel.

[lordultimus]

"When I was doing SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN, I made sure to put everything back in the box at the end so other writers could play with the Doc Ock they grew up with."

Um, no you didn't. You had Otto in that Peter/Otto hybrid clone body. And the next writer actually tried to continue his character arc as a hero.

[dan_ingram]

Whelp...

That was a thing that happened.

[deh_tommy]

As much as I love DOOM, I was a bit let down by his inevitable turn to villainy and him getting his face scarred again. I thought Secret Wars was such a good ending/turning point for his character.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

"F*** what the fans, our paying customers, want." That's what I get from that quote.

Nothing new, really.

I like progression and change, but... fine. If that's what the Marvel Bullpen wants, then fine.

But quit pretending. Quit pretending you want these characters to grow and change and improve and more from their experiences. Write what amounts to '80s/'90s era cartoons.

I don't say that in a derogatory manner. Look at Batman: The Animated Series. The characters remained largely fixed throughout, save for the odd evolution of Harvey Dent into Two-Face or Barbara Gordon becoming Batgirl.

And it was fantastic! (No pun related to the book that's the subject of this post.)

What was that one book called? Marvel Adventures? Same kind of deal, and that was also great! The stories were fun, but the characters tended to come out of the experiences the same as they were going in.

If what the writers want to do is give us stories that revolve around a status quo, then do that.

But don't BS us with all this other stuff if you don't want things to grow and evolve, to have changes matter. Leave that for the big boy stuff in the MCU, if you can't handle being a part of a bigger whole.

[zachbeacon]

I think the "kiddie" books get a bad wrap.

Marvel Adventures Avengers was the best Avengers book for a long time because it told good stories while keeping true to the core of the characters instead of changing everyone's personality to fit the newest summer crossover.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Oh, and separate from my tangent above: what happened to Galactus necessitating him being reborn for the... how many times is this, now?

[zachbeacon]

I've been wondering that too. Based on context, I assume it has something to do with Thor (which I'm not currently reading) but I've looked at some solicits for issues coming out concurrently with Reckoning War and I don't see any mention of Galactus or the Heralds.

[mazway_75]

Ah, now we get to enjoy the tradition of the next writer tossing out years of development and making Johnny an impulsive idiot who has to learn self-control and responsibility...

[strejdaking]

Given that even Wonder Woman, book notorious for having writers undo everything the previous guy did for no reason, DIDN'T do this with Ares, this is just embarassing.

[steverodgers5]

I sort of understand where he's coming from, in that it's y'know Doom. And he's too good a villain to lose there.

But I don't think the artists got the memo there. As with in every comic I see with Doom these days somehow the artist doing them never seem to get his armoured face right. I don't know why, as multitudes of artists were drawing it consistently for about 50 years.

Maybe it's just something to do with editors not bothering their asses these days to keep characters on model.

[shakalooloo]

The mask, and also colourists seem to forget that his eyes are brown. Green, for magical effects sometimes? Okay, sure. But a surprisingly large number of Doom's appearances give him blue eyes.

That's how you can tell it's a Doombot.