Marvel Voices: Iceman #4

[superboyprime]

Comments

[blues32]

FINALLY! Finally someone said it! Mutants ARE human. They're as much part of humanity as anyone else. Also, Jesus Christ, freezing reality?

[nyadnar17]

Brand is an asshole(I mean lets be honest its part of her charm) but I adore her eye rolling at Mutants thinking anyone outside the fucking solar system thinks of them as anything but another flavor of human.

[icon_uk]

That doesn't feel like the point to me, the fact aliens don't recognise a difference doesn't mean there aren't many problems by the way those involved perceive the difference.

Those outside the solar system probably don't even notice variegated skin colour either (Well, Kree do, but they're racist about it too), but that alone has caused one hell of a lot of problems on Earth.

I mean, I get the intent, it's a "We don't see borders on Earth when looking at it from space" thing, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and cause issues.

[icon_uk]

"Freezing reality"

They mention in story that it's beyond mere logic, so we're talking about cosmic level shenanigans at Galactus level pseudoscience in the MU were the laws of thermodynamics are more tolerated than obeyed and the rules of physics are.. well...



So I'm not really having a problem with it here.

[blues32]

Oh, I get that. I'm not dismissing it. I'm shocked at the level of power Bobby has. He went from a human snowman to freezing reality. Really earning that Omega Level Mutant title now.

[icon_uk]

Ah right, gotcha. :)

[jgraygaming]

Heh.

I'm glad someone realized one single gene doesn't make an entire new species.

[lordultimus]

Oh, thank GOD someone said it!

[shakalooloo]

"I cried my ice out"

Brilliant!

[morallyambiguousscience]

Oh hey a single comic doesn't endorse mutant supremacist bullshit, fucking finally.

[chalicother]

The "Amazing friends" part sounds awkward.

Usually refers to Firestar, Spiderman, and Human Torch.

Giving Iceman just his community of mutant friends for some reason to me seems awkward.

Finally, I don't feel anything for the human part.

People seee mutant supremacy, I just see a group of people who don't want to identify with the people who make murder robots to kill them or for Bobby's case kicked them out of their house.

Just feels it loses the point that "some" mutants are trying to make.

[morallyambiguousscience]

That point those mutants are trying to make is their ethic group is superior to all others.

[chalicother]

Except not all mutants.

Yes, some mutants are ,but generally most of the mutants just don't identify with their oppressors.

If we talking about ethnic groups or race dynamics, then it makes sense that mutants would leave and try to make a human society. They are not trying to identify with the group that has tried to basically get rid of them.

I don't know, I just don't connect to it.

[mindsweeper]

I don’t connect to it either. Mutants aren’t the ones who need to recognize that Mutants are humans. This might’ve meant more to me coming from a human, maybe Bobby’s mother apologizing to him, saying that she sees him as human.

Fun fact: Pre-Krakoa and resurrection, Mutants had over a 94% chance of being brutally murdered by humans or their machines because they’re Mutants (and a 5.6% chance of having their X-gene erased because they’re Mutants). While he can dance now, pre-Krakoa, Bobby stood a very likely chance of heavily armed people or robots crashing that human club to kill him, simply for being a Mutant.

Bobby’s father refused to be saved because he didn’t want to take “Mutant medicine” his Mutant son provided, so it’s not like Bobby abandoned his family, even as terribly as they treated him.

In short, I don’t think Mutants’ self-perception of their humanity is a real problem.

[morallyambiguousscience]

Oh bullshit, they're constantly talking about how they're better than human society, humans, and are actively engaging in economic and actual imperialism.

[chalicother]

Yes, most oppressed groups will want to be better than the group that oppressed them.


That's actually common.

[deh_tommy]

But up until Destiny of X it wasn’t just “we have to be better than what came before”, it was “we are your lords and masters, we are better and stronger and nobler than you in every conceivable manner because of our genetics” as they went and unapologetically speedran through almost all the same mistakes their oppressors had made. And when it was “we have to be better than before”, it was over things like *language*.

[blues32]

It's too bloody bad. They are the same as the people who make murder robots to kill them. What it amounts to is denying reality in the same way that those humans deny mutants are just like them. Creating that separation is what makes it easier to numb any feelings of guilt. The same propaganda used in times of war to demean and dehumanize the opposition.

[chalicother]

Creating that separation is what makes it easier to numb any feelings of guilt

Because seperating from the people who murder you is wrong..?

The same propaganda used in times of war to demean and dehumanize the opposition.

Yes, because the X-men from the beginning have been treated as different from human species.

We can't accept mutants being different from humans, but everything in Marve Universe is okay ?

It makes logical sense that the mutants would want to separate themselves.

[blues32]

Because humans AREN'T the people trying to murder them. That implies that every human on the planet wants them dead. That none of them have human friends. That human parents strangle their mutant babies in a cribs. No, there are only some humans that try to murder them.

Were mutants a singular species, perhaps. But anything can be a mutant. Is, say, Ice Man the same species as Zzzxx? Or are they a mutated human and a mutated symboite?

Wanting to be different doesn't make it so. That's how superiority complexes form.

[chalicother]

Wanting to be different doesn't make it so

Except mutants didn't want to be different.

They got told from birth they were different.
Mutants were abandoned or left by their human parents.

Because humans AREN'T the people trying to murder them.

I mean the majority of mutants have had their lives threatened or ignored by humans.
It's major part of the X-Men.
Telling people that is basically saying not all oppressors are like, not all men or not all white people.
It doesn't ignore the shared experience that mutants.

[blues32]

Mutants couldn't be told at birth that they were different. Nearly every mutant is born looking like any other baby.

[icon_uk]

That's hair-splitting, any mutant COULD be born different (like Nightcrawler) or look entirely human but have already active powers (like Madrox, or Selene).

It's just that not all ARE.

[blues32]

Pretty sure all three of them are unique cases. Nightcrawler had a demonic dad, Selene is some sort of vampire with magic powers and such, and Madrox actually had his mutant status questioned by the fact he was born with his abilities.

It used to be a stated fact that only a small percentage of mutants are born with visible mutations as the X-gene tends to respond to the hormonal release that comes with puberty. They seem to be throwing that concept out the window lately though.

[icon_uk]

Azazel isn't a demon. He looks like a demon (like his son) and was stuck in another dimension, but he's considered to be a mutant like any other.

Selene's mutant power is her life force vampirism which she can use for effects like momentary super speed and telekinesis. Any magic she learned, like Magik or Pixie, is distinct from any mutant powers.

I totally agree that very few mutants are born with physical mutations, and Kurt is perhaps helped by being a second generation mutant born to two mutant parents, but they are around, and in Kurts case have been since the1970's (Since his parentage wasn't even a plot point for some years after his debut there was not thought to be anything odd about him being born like that)

[blues32]

Not a demon?! Azazel was actively trying to breach the gates of Heaven while Nightcrawler was dead!

[icon_uk]

Yeah, but that was a hobby he happened to pursue in the afterlife, rather than a religious imperative. :)

I mean, Kurt was happily dwelling in heaven at that time, but that didn't make him an angel.

[blues32]

Azazel may be a mutant, but that doesn't mean he's a mutant human. He's a member of a "horde of demonic humanoid mutants from Biblical times". Who fought angelic looking humanoid mutants. He may not be from the bowels of Hell, but I'm pretty sure he's got some demonic blood. The dude can consume souls for crying out loud.

[icon_uk]

What other sort of a mutant would he be? If he was a demon, he wouldn't need to claim to be a mutant, he'd just be a demon.

The whole "clan" thing like the Neyaphem, Cheyarafim (Which Azazel believed Warren was a member of) and Romulus clan of lupine mutants (Which somehow contains Wolverine, despite him not be lupine and wolverines being badgers) were a thing at the time but were all made up of common or garden mutants, not demons/angels.

He IS a magic user yes, so his "soul consuming" power is a magic skill he learned, not a mutant one he was born with.

Sorry, but everything points to Azazel being a mutant human, who took advantage of his demonic appearance, and nothing confirms he is anything else.

[donnblake]

The implication at the time was that Azazel and his mob reflected common depictions of angels and demons and associated mythology because those myths had been based on ancient mutants.

The fact that the X-men have been to (several) hell(s) and thrown down with an assortment of no-joke mystical demons... was not brought up.