cyberghostface: (Spidey & MJ)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Look's like Carlie decided to come back from her home planet...and with a new makeover to boot.

So once again, Carlie's Mary-Sueness is in full effect, having deduced what the cops around her couldn't figure out (especially since this isn't the first time in the Marvel universe that supervillains have killed people via dropping them from heights) and ends up looking better for it with the cops disrespecting her. Seriously, look at that cop's sneer. Poor Carlie, how could anyone hate her?

Of course, turns out Carlie has yet another new look with her only distinguishing factor in her appearance being that she has glasses.

Just a reminder, this was how Carlie looked last issue. This is becoming ridiculous now--has anyone ever thought of making a model sheet for the character to pass around to new artists for some sort of consistency? She's been around for years now and no artist has agreed on what she should look like. 


Date: 2011-11-12 09:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] pervymax
But a character, female or otherwise, who's not all they should be lacks character, by definition . Since 'she' is badly developed as a character, then people tend to point that out.

The fact that 'she' also visually inconsistent underscores this point, since 'she' is not really a she: 'she' is a piece of imagination give (lack of) form via her visual representation and her characterization. Both of which are, as you might say, 'not all she should be' .

Re: Sorry

Date: 2011-11-12 12:09 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Felicia)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
What's your point? [personal profile] cleome45 didn't say any and all negative responses to Carlie Cooper are misogynistic.

It is possible to be misogynistic while discussing a poorly designed and executed female character. It's even possible to be misogynistic while making legitimate critiques about characterisation.

Re: Sorry

Date: 2011-11-12 04:11 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (violet2)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I didn't say it's wrong to critique how the character's written and drawn, did I?

What I find creepy are jokes like "Carlie Cooper died on her way to her home planet" or and then a clown car pushed a refrigerator on her and crushed her like a pancake.

No matter what the original context of the joke, against the backdrop of the Big Two's canonical misogyny, jokes along the lines of haw haw she should die are really off-putting. And unnecessary.

Re: Sorry

Date: 2011-11-12 06:36 pm (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
Just curious - not being snarky or sarcastic here...

Would it be all right if those exact same jokes were made about a male character? Because if so, that strikes me as both hypocritical and something that flies in the face of actual feminism, which is supposed to be about equality between the genders, not handling one gender with kid gloves.

I can see how one could call criticism of Carlie misogynistic if she's being ripped as too "girly" or even if the criticism focuses around the fact that she's Spider-Man's girlfriend. But to be overly restrictive of criticizing her on the basis that she's a female character would not be serving a positive purpose.

Now if people would be having the same objections to Hal Jordan being the butt of a Poochie joke or something similar, then at least that's consistent. But I get the feeling that nobody would bat an eye if the same things were said about him, and I don't think that attitude serves the community well at all.

Re: Sorry

Date: 2011-11-12 07:13 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (phantom1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
"Kid gloves?" Really?

I think it's pretty understandable if women feel protective of women characters, given how rare they are and how seldom they're the center of cultural narratives.

Equality would be nice, but I'm not going to judge these situations now as if we've already got it, when we don't. Or that as the less powerful gender in the equation, the onus is always on me to be high-minded and turn the other cheek no matter how much this shit pisses me off.

If we don't speak up when dissymmetry bothers us, how will there ever be equality? The powerful will just continue to claim that they didn't know there was a problem since nobody ever complained.

Also, I really don't recall seeing tons of jokes about how Peter should be killed because he's being written OOC or drawn poorly. If they've been abundant on the Spiderman threads, I'd really like some links, please.

One more time: In the context of misogyny in comics, jokes about killing off female characters for the "crime" of being badly written, drawn, or unliked by fans is gross.

Re: Sorry

Date: 2011-11-12 08:56 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (logo1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45

I stand by my opinion that the context isn't the same, though.

I've made at least one joke about how I'd rather they bumped off Wolverine instead of the Scarlet Witch. (When somebody started a thread suggesting that Wolverine kill the Scarlet Witch.) But Wolverine to me is overexposed, horribly written compared to what he was like when he debuted and, consequently, boring as shit.

Again, the situations can't really be comparable because the status of male vs. female characters is so different.

Joking aside, though, I really don't like death-o-rama in superhero comics at all. It's rarely done well, it's rarely permanent, and I tend to think that writers who can't think of any other way to dispose of disliked characters aren't very good writers.

Re: Sorry

Date: 2011-11-16 06:39 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
so have I. Hell I've been, asking for Peter to be killed so he can turn into a Skrull or dire wraith, almost since BND started.

Mod Note

Date: 2011-11-14 09:29 pm (UTC)
salinea: Deadpool has a fucking horned hat on and is ready to kick gum and chew ass. Errr, moderate s_d. (mod hat)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Context matters. Women and men aren't viewed and treated the same way in our societies, and that's why some words are judged to be more harmful to women, when the most equivalent words used against men do not have the same impact or the same heinous connotations.
Moreover trying to object to the existence of that context and pretending to do so in the name of feminism is a classic derailing criticism. (If you don't know much about derailing, check this out). Please, don't do it anymore.


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