Fantastic Four #308

[iamrman]

The Fantastic Four take on Fasaud.

Fasaud was the oil minister of Aquira and was involved in shady dealings. A crusading reporter uncovered said shady dealings and there was a scuffle. Fasaud was electrocuted by a TV camera and somehow became a digital being

Well, this was just awful. If the uncomfortable stereotype wasn’t worse enough, we also have all the Sharon business. All the Fasaud nonsense leads to Ben and Sharon being blasted in to space. Ben mutates further, while poor old Sharon gets turned in to a She-Thing. Of course, this leads to even more histrionics. The issue after the transformation is called ‘I Want To Die’, after all.

I am really not in the mood for all this, so I’m going to skip the rest of this Epic Collection. You can rest easy in the knowledge that I won’t be spamming the community with any more Englehart Fantastic Four until I get to the next Epic Collection. That one has Mantis in it!

Hopefully the next manga on my list will cleanse my palette.

Comments

[beyondthefringe]

“So tight… and masculine!”

“All the Fasaud nonsense” is about right.

[full_metal_ox]

“Fasaud” = “facade”?

[beyondthefringe]

Young me did not get the pun.
Older me just groaned at it.

[blues32]

"Tight"? What does that even mean? How is Johnny "tight" in a sense that a woman could not be? Terribly written. And I'm glad the caption tells us what her expression is because I couldn't tell from the look of it.

[beyondthefringe]

I assume it's because he has a really tight ass in the standard FF uniform.
Not like, Dick Grayson level of ass, and certainly not Steve "America's ass" Rogers, but... is it possible that Johnny Storm has the tightest, sexiest (male) ass in the Marvel Universe?

Then again, Spider-Man's costume is pretty damn revealing in its own right.

I think we need experts to weigh in on this.

[blues32]

See, I considered that idea, but a woman can have a tight ass as well. So would Sharon panic if she had to catch some lady with a tight butt?

[scorntx]

Surely Nightcrawler is one of the better looking man-butts of the Marvel U.
If not the best, then at least right up there.

Daredevil too, I suppose, but we all know that whole bod is curséd.

[blues32]

Does he? It's hard to tell with him always sort of hunched over...and his clothes were never flattering in that regard. Maybe his new Uncanny Spider-Man outfit?

[scorntx]

Why is it there's always a little pang of dread on seeing Englehart's the writer, and this feeling of "oh, no. What's he done this time?"

Ah, yes. That's why.


I assume that Ben's response after this was to take Sharon aside and gently, but firmly say "look, Sharon, this isn't working out and I don't think this is the most sensible place for you to be right now."
And then, y'know, get her to therapy.


"That one has Mantis in it."
...
When I said, "how long before Englehart brings in Mantis", that was meant t' be a joke! A joke!
*sob*

[iamrman]

Do you not think Mantis is the greatest, most important character ever?

[full_metal_ox]

I wouldn’t say that, but I’ve loved all of the Furious Five and Po, as well as the whole Kung Fu Panda mythos: the creators did their cultural homework and actually had a firm understanding of the Wuxia genre, with the result that Chinese audiences embraced the franchise.

[scorntx]

Strangely enough, this one does not.

(And is not wild about Thanos either. Or the Sentry. Or Sage.

And some modern X-writers and their fondness for Emma Frost can be just...)

[iamrman]

In full agreement with you regarding Thanos and the Sentry. Sage and Emma I have no strong feelings about either way.

[bruinsfan]

Are we forgetting The Hood already?

[scorntx]

Didn't forget so much as chose not to mention him.

[tcampbell1000]

If only.

I think you could make some hay out of the idea that Ben, who has proven himself over and over as a great hero and a great person, is a terrible leader, just flat-out awful, like General McClellan bad, and it's only because he and the Torch are great heroes that they even survive his dumbass decisions. After all, the only role models he has to emulate are Reed, Captain America, and maybe Cyclops--people he will never be able to emulate, no matter how hard he tries--and some half-remembered football coaches from his pre-Thing days who weren't exactly qualified to strategize with superpowers. As my wife sometimes puts it, "I don't want to keep 'growing my career'! Not everyone is meant to have a turn in the CEO chair!"

But that's not a story Englehart was interested in telling here. According to him, after this bumpy start, Ben and Sharon will become one of the great romances of the modern era. Kinda like Pygmalion but with more body horror. (Maybe you don't think Pygmalion was that great, but I'm willing to bet he did.)

[beyondthefringe]

Ben Grimm: excellent teammate, awful leader. I like it. He's never shown any real head for strategy, but he's good at cooperating with others -when he feels like it-.

Not that Reed's a good leader, but he's good at taking individual components and making them into something which works--a formula, or a machine... that's why his plans should always feel scientific and calibrated for the components (people) on hand.

Cyclops and Captain America are actual military strategists, though coming from different backgrounds and schools of thought. But while Cyclops is tightly-focused and rigid and a control freak, Cap's the guy with flexibility -and- charisma, making him the one everyone listens to.

This made me think about how others in the MU shape up...

Professor X? Leads like a professor/teacher/educator.

Cable? A battlefield warrior--not necessarily a military strategist but someone who's gained his experience in actual combat.

Bishop? A cop. Give him a team, and you basically have Hondo from SWAT.

Luke Cage? A rare example of someone who's grown into a position of authority over time, without forgetting his more individualistic roots.

Sam Wilson? Leads like a social worker, I'd assume... worried about issues, good with people, but not always so good with big picture.

Peter Parker? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I'm sorry, he's not a leader and if he's put in charge of people, someone else will probably wind up influencing his decisions before he self-sabotages, because he is TERRIFIED of responsibility and the cost of him failing.

Carol? Again, the military background makes her good at certain things, but without Steve's natural charisma and innate skill. She's -decent- as a leader but far better in a second-in-command/battlefield role. (Same goes for Rhodey, TBH.)

Janet? Stepped up big time over the years. Learned from watching Steve. Charismatic. A dark horse candidate for leading a team, but not to be underestimated. I'd call her style organic, flexible, and adaptable. Much like the woman and her power set.

Thor Odinson: I'm sorry, but despite immortality and centuries of experience, he's still someone you point at the enemy and wait for the storm to pass.

[iamrman]

I would have loved to have seen more of Monica as leader of the Avengers, but then Marvel Editorial had to go and muck it all up.

[scorntx]

Wouldn't say Cyclops is exactly lacking in charisma.
He's utterly terrible when it comes to people skills, but he's managed to get folks like Magneto and Namor working with him (however grumbly Namor might've been). And Wolverine too, as well.

Professor X also has the serious flaw (though not unique to him) of thinking he knows what's best for everyone, and the tendency, as Kitty Pryde once so ably put it, to be a complete jerk.

Carol... hoo... well, there is the low charisma, but she's also got a nasty tendency to be a somewhat inflexible leader, and way too prone to going straight for "you're either WITH ME or AGAINST ME!" (and especially at crossover time.)

[bruinsfan]

There's also Dr. Strange as the de facto leader of the Defenders, though that's really more like herding cats than leading a team. I think half the members just sometimes did what he said because he had the best place to hang out, rather than out of respect for his leadership.

[blues32]

Now, now...Peter did okay during the War of the Realms.

[bravest_spinja]

Here's a sort an analysis of leadership styles I wrote a couple years back:

Captain Marvel: Experienced and competent, but having a military career long before becoming a superhero means she's sometimes stuck in that line of thinking. It also means she's not great at endearing herself to the capes community. I also have a theory being REALLY powerful mitigates leadership ability, because you're not forced to be creative, and your abilities are best used implementing, not directing.

Luke Cage: Tough guy with a tender center means he has the right mix of empathy/get shit done. Surprisingly well-connected, and having a partnership early in his career means he's a good team player. Not always the best "big picture" guy though.

Hawkeye: In some ways, a great coach, and great at whipping misfits into shape, because he's been there. Almost nobody loves the idea of being a superhero as much as him, so he kind of takes it seriously. But his personality REALLY subs people the wrong way, and his naked thirst for leadership keeps people from acquiescing.

Cable: Say what you will about the Summers family, they're born leaders. Battle-hardened, and his time travel means he's very adaptable and has a veritable encyclopedia of battle tactics in his head. But kind of like what I said about Carol Danvers, being a post-Apocalyptic messiah isn't quite the same as being an Avenger, and that can cause clashes. Plus, I think his teammates have a hard time wrapping their head around him being simultaneously older and younger than them.

Havok: In a lot of ways, he's smarter and more charismatic than his brother, and that's potentially a game breaker. However, he's in less control of his own mutant power, which can be distracting, and is far too concerned with being normal/liked

Danielle Moonstar: Clearly the most capable of the New Mutant generation, but she kind of tends to be duplicitous "for the greater good", and she's way too young to be pulling that shit.

Thor: Would you believe he's lead teams before? Like, he's got an innately commanding presence and THOUSANDS of years of experience as a War God. But fighting robots can be a little different than frost giants, and it's kind of like your grandpa figuring out his iphone. Also, his dad has been trying to get him to settle into a more administrative capacity forever, and he seems he'd rather just wander the realms fighting said frost giants.

Iron Man: The armors itself just exudes authority, and his ability to create badass weapons often translates into some pretty ingenuous thinking on the battlefield. Not actually having superpowers also makes him very good at delegating. But he can be very abrasive, and keep in mind, Tony Stark has never actually had any formal training.

Storm: Very, very adaptable, perhaps as much as any superhuman save Wolverine. Is able to be very serious and very charismatic at the same time. People just want to be around her, to follow her. But in a lot of ways, she's almost more like a cool aunt or a rock star than a squad leader. Her team is almost more like an entourage. This makes her units a little less cohesive and prone to dissolution when she's not paying attention.

Wasp: The Elle Woods of superheroes, where people underestimate her bubbly personality for being an airhead, when it's actually a mark of confidence and knowing what she wants. Gregarious and a social animal, which is often unique among supers. Also, her power set is uniquely suited to being able to survey the battlefield without being too distant or too obtrusive. Her main flaw is she sometimes sees being a superhero as a side gig, and is kind an elitist where she writes off people she thinks are weirdos.

Cyclops: The textbook example of being able to turn weaknesses into a strength. His emotional repression, self-pity, and wandering eye becomes an ability to take a disparate group of powers, control them, and apply their skills how he would if he were them. Cyclops is able to command some weird collections of people, because he doesn't care if you don't like him. He kind of gets off on it. But he's always been pretty isolated to the mutant corner of the Marvel U, and does not get on well or inspire people outside of it.

Mr Fantastic: Reed Richards has often been characterized as stereotypically autistic, and run with it making him a sociopath, or unable to interact with people, but that's misunderstanding both him and the spectrum in general. He knows he doesn't always come across as "On Planet Earth" to people, which makes him surprisingly easy to get along because he's like "We all have our thing". And he can be an inspirational speaker. Remember, he's an in-universe celebrity. But obviously, he can be single-minded to a fault, and tends to trade in on his reputation. Like "He must know what he's talking about and I don't understand what he's saying enough to argue the point." But to take command he HAS to make sure he establishes his authority first, and not be outnumbered by strangers. Once he loses the thread, he can't get it back.

[tcampbell1000]

Just to round this off:

Steve Rogers: The leader you want. No one on Earth, powered or not, has more experience coordinating team members with vastly different power sets, personalities, and motivations. No one is better at inspiring heroes to be heroes. No one is more widely liked and respected, periodt. The FF are a team because they're a family; the X-Men are a team because they're mutants; but often as not the Avengers are a team because of Captain Goddamn America. His military experience maps well to heroics, but he knows when to think beyond it. And though some call him a dinosaur, he's never afraid to learn something new, or work with someone new.

For all that, he does have weaknesses. He's human and has off days like anybody. He has trouble balancing his unstated role as America's representative with his roles as hero and leader. Though he's sharper than some villains assume, his willingness to trust can still be a fault, and that man-out-of-time thing can blind him now and then.

His biggest issue, though, is public relations, which he views as a chore at best and an annoying distraction at worst. Doing the job, staying humble, and being the best he can be is where his PR strategy begins and ends. Often, that's been more than enough. But on the occasions where it hasn't been, he's looked to pass the reins to someone else.

[scorntx]

Seems like one of Steve's bigger weaknesses is what looks an awful lot like undiagnosed depression of some kind, given his tendency to dwell on past failures, or the state of modern America and / or The Dream, or thinking that he's an outdated dinosaur who nobody listens to.

And his occasional (not always, and not even often, just occasional) tendency to leap to judgements about people.
(Usually Mutants, for some reason...)

[tcampbell1000]

The depression thing may be a problem for Steve the guy, but it rarely seems to affect his leadership in a negative way. It also seems to affect a lot of Marvel leaders to some degree: Cyclops isn't a barrel of laughs, either. The standout is Reed Richards, who overall seems happier, despite his periods of workaholism and similar "Marvel leader anxieties." This seems almost entirely due to his more balanced life. Fighting bad guys is a thing he does, but his family, and pushing the frontiers of science, are his true passions.

Ask the other longtime Marvel leaders about their nonsuperhero interests and you don't get much. Every once in a blue moon, somebody remembers Steve used to be an artist, but if you bring that up in front of him, he arches an eyebrow and says, "I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I've got more important things to worry about right now." As for Scott, I'm struggling to remember if he has any hobbies outside of relationship drama. I'm pretty sure he's never even had a non-superhero job.

"Cyclops flips burgers, Steve goes back to work for a comics company as it's run in the 2020s." Not the worst story ideas. "No, I can't heat the burgers, it's a CONCUSSIVE blast. Helps me make those 'smashburgers,' though." "Avengers, I've been alerted to a great worldwide evil. We must destroy the NFT market. Completely."

[full_metal_ox]

tcampbell1000:

Kinda like Pygmalion but with more body horror. (Maybe you don't think Pygmalion was that great, but I'm willing to bet he did.)

I wonder if Englehart knows that George Bernard Shaw’s original stage play ended with Eliza Doolittle walking out on Professor Higgins and his smug condescending mentorship? (Just as the historical Annie Oakley never had to choose between romance and achievement, the musical to the contrary.)

[full_metal_ox]

And then Fantastic Enterprises promptly paid restitution to the hot-dog vendor, riiiight?